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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the show on Martin

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will usher host and we have a great show

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tonight first of all I got to say that

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Alejandro Rojas will not be joining us

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this evening however we didn't just

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leave it like that we got the one and

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only jordan bonaparte from canada runs a

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great show up there called nighttime

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podcasts we'll talk a little bit about

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that but he's going to do some UFO

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updates with us our guest today is dan

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write down dan has a book that just came

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out September 1st he's a longtime UFO

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researcher will talk about that going

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way back to I believe he started in 1978

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or so something like that and in MUFON

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so his book is called CIA UFO do I have

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this right CIA UFOs papers 50 years of

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government secrets and cover-ups if I

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cut that off just a little bit but I

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think it's CIA's UFO Papers is a main

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title and it looks like a great book I

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have not seen again I can't wait to

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actually read it so that that is are

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going to be our conversation this

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evening I thank everyone that helps out

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with the show and I also want to thank

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you the supporters of the show and all

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the listeners but anyone can support us

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all you have to do is go over to podcast

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UFO comm and you'll see the support page

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we also have patreon you can support us

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there as well and with that you get the

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full 2 hour or 1 hour and 50 minutes or

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so show that you can listen to on your

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media player and that includes all the

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archives we have over 370 shows now on

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our website the two-hour shows only go

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back about a couple hundred shows or so

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we started doing them about 200 shows

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before that it was just one hour and so

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let's see oh yes we have a blog Charles

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Lear has written a blog and it's called

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UFO 911

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9-1-1 calls police calls recordings

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about UFOs and in that group he also

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talks about Rendlesham forest we're

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going to be talking to our guests as

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well about that this evening but for

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right now we'll bring in Jordan from

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Canada welcome to the show Jordan thanks

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for filling in thanks for having me

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Martin like a big shoes to fill with

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Alejandro to here but yeah

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Alejandro is moving that's why he

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couldn't be with us tonight I'm trying I

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can't really remember if I mentioned

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that or not but anyway yeah it wasn't a

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fight there's no bad blood or and I

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think we need to not yet yeah there's

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still time for that but okay yeah but

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anyway you have the night time podcast

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up in Canada and you've been on the show

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we've filled in a number of times over

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the years and actually was a guest at

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one time and where I was guest on your

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show it's been it's been a really good

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connection and we can't forget to talk

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about our nice little meeting up in shag

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harbour that was yeah well that's in

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we're on a boat I think the one-year

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anniversary of that cuz the shag harbour

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UFO festival is I think in two weeks two

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years right

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well is it yeah two years well time

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flies you know like you just said you

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got you know two hundred two hour-long

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episodes you don't have time like

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between those two kind of feel time

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passing

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that's right know if you get that but I

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really do yeah i undertow to get that

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yeah but anyway I so that's I can't

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believe it's been two years are they

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still doing the festival up there yeah

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I'm actually I'm going to I'm going to

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be a speaker at this year's it's in it's

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in two weeks and they're kind of doing

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doing a similar thing that have kind of

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a schedule of guest speakers myself

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Chris Stiles will be speaking several

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others they're doing the boat tour where

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some of the eyewitnesses from the

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original shag Harbor UFO event are going

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to go on a boat with some guests of the

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area where the UFO was said to have

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crashed also I've heard rumors that

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there's going to be a big announcement

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at the shag Harbor Festival this year by

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the Royal Canadian Mint

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who are the people who make coins and

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stuff oh oh it sounds like they're gonna

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be making some

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thing probably hey Jordan you know I

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have so many I know we're gonna get into

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you know UFO news and all that but I

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have so many new listeners to this show

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because people are actually taking more

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people are taking interests in this all

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the time just if you can and a quick

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nutshell for the person who's never

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heard of the shag harbour event can you

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talk about that yeah so [\h__\h] the Shang

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Harbor UFO event people will often refer

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to it as Canada's Roswell because it's a

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it's a UFO incident in 1964 or seven in

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a small fishing village basically in

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Nova Scotia were a large group of people

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sighted what appeared to be at the time

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thought to be a commercial airplane

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crashing into the water they thought it

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appeared to be like three lights kind of

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passing over this small community called

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shag harbour and again into the water I

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think 11 calls were made to emergency

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basically to the police which led to

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search and rescue going out into the

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water expecting to scoop up a bunch of

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people basically fighting for their life

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after a plane crash but they didn't find

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anything

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divers were sent down for days

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afterwards nothing was ever found there

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was never a plane reported missing the

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only thing really they found was some

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thick sulfurous smelling foam on the

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water but sadly samples were never taken

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to that so that's never been identified

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but the event had been the subject of

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several levels of government doing

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research and investigation into what it

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could have been it's never been

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conclusively said what what was

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responsible for this sighting and and

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again just to be clear it's not the kind

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of thing where a small group of people

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together had seen this this was um

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several groups I think 11 or 12 separate

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groups of people had had witnessed this

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so there's without any question

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something has happened but at this point

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people refer to it as Canada's Roswell

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inconsiderate the or one of several of

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Canada's mo

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well-known UFO events oh yeah right

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right

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can you let's see can you give the

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listener out there just uh also a little

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quick you know nutshell about what you

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do for the nighttime podcast yeah so I

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actually don't live too far from shag

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harbour but I I host a show called the

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nighttime podcast where unlike Martin

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show where it's more interview like you

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know you and a guest discussing

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something mine is it's it's more like a

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documentary style telling of Canadian

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based crime missing-persons cases or

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just plain odd or unusual stories but

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one thing I have a personal passion

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about is the UFO phenomenon and that

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topic so as much as often as as much as

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I can I'll take Canadian UFO events get

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in touch with witnesses investigators

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ufologists or even just people like

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Martin and and chat it out so throughout

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the I guess I've done probably 80 or 90

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episodes of the nighttime podcast at

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this point and I've covered quite a few

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UFO events so people who are into kind

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of hearing the background or hearing the

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story of lesser-known UFO events if you

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tuned in to my show or go through my

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back catalogue you'll probably find some

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interesting stuff yeah the one you have

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up there recently is called the Bell

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Island boom and I listened to that two

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episodes of that that's really a bizarre

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situation where this but they don't

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under it's ounds like it could be may be

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a natural phenomenon but then it just

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did such bizarre things to this one home

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you know I mean burn the burn the copper

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wires right out of the the wires and

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fuses shot across and made dents in the

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wall and you know I mean just really

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weird weird stuff that's a great story

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that one yeah and there's and there's

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really no question about it like all of

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the things that happened during the Bell

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Island boom are well documented

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photographed a lot of the witnesses have

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spoke several times about what had

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happened including the fire marshal who

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was sent to investigate but it kind of

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the official explanation for the Bell

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Island boom

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for people who are unfamiliar with that

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one it was basically an aerial explosion

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like the sound basically a loud

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explosion in the sky but for some reason

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it seemed to create an incredibly

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bizarre amount of electrical

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disturbances in this one area of a small

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island in Newfoundland in kind of the

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electrical disturbances were things like

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television sets exploding so much

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electricity passing through the the

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powerlines like out on the street that

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there was a trail of ash below the

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powerlines from like the rubber

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insulation or the rubble rubber casing

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it all melted several homes had to be

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completely rewired a barn full of

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chickens that was was collapsed and all

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of the chickens inside were basically

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just fried oh the the efficient yeah

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it's a really strange stuff the official

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explanation is that it was a very rare

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type of super-powerful Lightning called

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ball lightning and the official

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explanation says that the ball lightning

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was amplified even further due to the

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fact that Bell Island has a lot of iron

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deposits so I don't know if it's Caniff

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that's conductive for electricity or

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whatnot but that's the official story

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but there's been years and years of

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rumors that it could be anything from a

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UFO event to government testing of

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electromagnetic energy type weapons

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oh yeah the Russians yeah yeah there's

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been after the original investigation

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after the Bell Island boom occurred were

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where the government had announced it

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was this ball lightning

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there's bit there were several groups of

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Canadian American and Russian military

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people interviewing and taking

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photographs and poking around the island

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and the people the Americans were from

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Los Alamos which I guess has a history

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for testing of experimental weapons and

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and again there's there's no question

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about whether or not they were there

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they were photographed and filmed there

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then you know that they were there doing

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that so there's been several

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documentaries about it and if you go

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YouTube and just search Bell Island boom

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you'll find some really fascinating

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stuff and my episodes are up there

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there's there's now three of them the

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third one I released features an

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interview with a woman named Cynthia

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Beckford who was 25 years old at the

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time and she lived in the home where was

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thought to be Ground Zero she still

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lives there and still owns the house and

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so she came kind of out of the shadows

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and told her story for the first time

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about what she remembers from that

274
00:12:02,069 --> 00:12:00,759
bizarre day Wow hey you know I can't

275
00:12:05,670 --> 00:12:02,079
believe how much time we've eaten up

276
00:12:07,410 --> 00:12:05,680
already so do you have yeah what do we

277
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:07,420
have any current events you want to talk

278
00:12:12,569 --> 00:12:10,810
about in the UFO world well the big talk

279
00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:12,579
right now there's really two things one

280
00:12:20,879 --> 00:12:17,110
is the the storm area 51

281
00:12:22,499 --> 00:12:20,889
oh yeah debacle and I'm sure you've said

282
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:22,509
so much about that on your show at this

283
00:12:27,210 --> 00:12:24,970
point but at the same time that that's

284
00:12:29,519 --> 00:12:27,220
being covered we also have kind of the

285
00:12:32,189 --> 00:12:29,529
opposite side of the spectrum is the the

286
00:12:33,389 --> 00:12:32,199
Navy admitting that a lot of the UFO

287
00:12:37,620 --> 00:12:33,399
footage that has come out and been

288
00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:37,630
released lately is is legit and I find I

289
00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:39,250
kind of find it interesting to see those

290
00:12:45,629 --> 00:12:42,310
stories juggled on the press by the

291
00:12:47,309 --> 00:12:45,639
press one being really making ufology

292
00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:47,319
and this whole thing look bad which is

293
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:49,510
the whole storm area51 thing and then

294
00:12:53,129 --> 00:12:51,610
the other adding you know credibility to

295
00:12:54,870 --> 00:12:53,139
it so I kind of find it interesting to

296
00:12:57,629 --> 00:12:54,880
see how that's all handled right right

297
00:12:59,069 --> 00:12:57,639
now john greenwald actually is the one

298
00:13:01,019 --> 00:12:59,079
that kind of spawned that whole

299
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:01,029
conversation with the navy which i think

300
00:13:05,879 --> 00:13:03,010
is pretty amazing i don't know how much

301
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:05,889
credit he has been given but basically

302
00:13:11,069 --> 00:13:08,050
it was his communication with the the

303
00:13:14,790 --> 00:13:11,079
navy they admitted it with him and in a

304
00:13:16,530 --> 00:13:14,800
document so good for him for he's really

305
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:16,540
shaking some branches and some

306
00:13:20,370 --> 00:13:18,250
interesting stuff pulling up he's

307
00:13:22,590 --> 00:13:20,380
shaking some interesting branches yes

308
00:13:24,750 --> 00:13:22,600
there's a lot of people that have

309
00:13:27,749 --> 00:13:24,760
different opinions about some of the

310
00:13:29,309 --> 00:13:27,759
documents but you know i have a feeling

311
00:13:31,259 --> 00:13:29,319
you know he's just looking for the truth

312
00:13:33,079 --> 00:13:31,269
that's that's what i you know that's my

313
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:33,089
thoughts about what John's doing but

314
00:13:39,090 --> 00:13:36,850
anyway about the storm area 51 what type

315
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:39,100
of have you looked into it you know what

316
00:13:44,009 --> 00:13:41,680
type of turnout I know it was in several

317
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:44,019
different places did you find out about

318
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:45,250
that

319
00:13:49,980 --> 00:13:47,279
yeah I was watching it all as it

320
00:13:51,990 --> 00:13:49,990
unfolded basically since since the very

321
00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:52,000
beginning of the whole movement or

322
00:13:56,850 --> 00:13:53,920
whatever you want to call it but there

323
00:13:59,369 --> 00:13:56,860
was a lot of infighting between the the

324
00:14:01,889 --> 00:13:59,379
original person who started the Facebook

325
00:14:04,650 --> 00:14:01,899
group or Facebook event that had the

326
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:04,660
million people agreeing to storm area 51

327
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:07,569
and find the aliens the guy who started

328
00:14:13,410 --> 00:14:10,689
that had partnered with a local business

329
00:14:16,980 --> 00:14:13,420
basically to organize an event to

330
00:14:19,019 --> 00:14:16,990
basically like a UFO type festival sort

331
00:14:20,670 --> 00:14:19,029
of like a Woodstock thing but it seemed

332
00:14:22,650 --> 00:14:20,680
like they had a pretty big falling out

333
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:22,660
eventually there was kind of three

334
00:14:25,499 --> 00:14:24,730
separate events planned one was in Las

335
00:14:29,550 --> 00:14:25,509
Vegas

336
00:14:31,980 --> 00:14:29,560
but in the end on at area 51 a couple

337
00:14:34,530 --> 00:14:31,990
hundred people showed up a lot of the

338
00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:34,540
photos I saw were almost embarrassing a

339
00:14:39,749 --> 00:14:36,670
big parking lot with you know basically

340
00:14:41,069 --> 00:14:39,759
empty save for a few cars and you know

341
00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:41,079
it seemed like everybody that was there

342
00:14:45,660 --> 00:14:43,689
was more like kind of like a youtuber

343
00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:45,670
type there was you know any pictures you

344
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:47,170
see it's like everybody has a camera out

345
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:48,850
filming themselves so I think a lot of

346
00:14:53,610 --> 00:14:51,610
the people showed up you know it were

347
00:14:55,619 --> 00:14:53,620
more so people showing up to kind of

348
00:14:57,449 --> 00:14:55,629
document what was happening and you know

349
00:15:00,389 --> 00:14:57,459
the million or so people on Facebook who

350
00:15:02,490 --> 00:15:00,399
were gonna go you know it's just to do

351
00:15:04,980 --> 00:15:02,500
something they they didn't seem to show

352
00:15:06,749 --> 00:15:04,990
up but I think it's it's definitely for

353
00:15:08,929 --> 00:15:06,759
the better while I do too and I think

354
00:15:11,340 --> 00:15:08,939
there was enough people you know saying

355
00:15:14,220 --> 00:15:11,350
putting the warnings out there of what

356
00:15:16,860 --> 00:15:14,230
could happen and you know plea actually

357
00:15:18,689 --> 00:15:16,870
there's was many pleads don't go

358
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:18,699
you know don't come here Rachel said you

359
00:15:22,379 --> 00:15:20,110
know they really didn't want anyone

360
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:22,389
there a town of fifty people you know

361
00:15:26,189 --> 00:15:24,160
they have no infrastructure for to

362
00:15:27,780 --> 00:15:26,199
handle anything like that so I guess

363
00:15:29,939 --> 00:15:27,790
that's good but I do know there were

364
00:15:33,119 --> 00:15:29,949
some you know music fest there was even

365
00:15:36,119 --> 00:15:33,129
in Las Vegas not just not just the area

366
00:15:37,410 --> 00:15:36,129
around area 51 there was a couple of

367
00:15:39,540 --> 00:15:37,420
events going on I just haven't heard

368
00:15:42,269 --> 00:15:39,550
what the turnout I think one of the

369
00:15:44,009 --> 00:15:42,279
turnouts was about 3,000 people but I

370
00:15:47,999 --> 00:15:44,019
don't know of the other I think there

371
00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:48,009
were two more other events that you know

372
00:15:54,179 --> 00:15:50,550
that's celebrating all of them were

373
00:15:55,620 --> 00:15:54,189
disappointing turnouts and it's it's

374
00:15:57,900 --> 00:15:55,630
kind of a shame because you know there's

375
00:15:59,100 --> 00:15:57,910
so many UFO conventions and festivals

376
00:16:01,199 --> 00:15:59,110
and stuff across

377
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:01,209
Canada than the United States it would

378
00:16:06,329 --> 00:16:03,970
be really cool if there was one event

379
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:06,339
that kind of everybody agreed to and you

380
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:08,130
know and it was really something special

381
00:16:12,509 --> 00:16:10,690
I don't think that event should be held

382
00:16:16,860 --> 00:16:12,519
in the middle of the desert near a you

383
00:16:19,290 --> 00:16:16,870
know US military base but it's a you

384
00:16:20,819 --> 00:16:19,300
know it had it would have needed to take

385
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:20,829
a different direction from the very

386
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:24,850
beginning and this was um you know just

387
00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:26,410
I think it was kind of an embarrassment

388
00:16:31,170 --> 00:16:28,630
and it's one of those things that when

389
00:16:32,790 --> 00:16:31,180
you talk to people that are kind of like

390
00:16:35,699 --> 00:16:32,800
the layman to the topic and you talk

391
00:16:38,370 --> 00:16:35,709
about being interested in UFOs and you

392
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:38,380
know all these related topics hopefully

393
00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:40,000
they don't think about you know you hope

394
00:16:45,329 --> 00:16:41,529
you're one of those nuts that were going

395
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:45,339
to storm area 51 yeah you know it's

396
00:16:50,250 --> 00:16:47,970
funny I've had a couple of relatives

397
00:16:52,139 --> 00:16:50,260
because they know I'm into the UFO topic

398
00:16:54,060 --> 00:16:52,149
like well what do you think about that

399
00:16:56,310 --> 00:16:54,070
and you know and and it's like I think

400
00:16:58,500 --> 00:16:56,320
it's actually I think it's foolish for

401
00:17:01,590 --> 00:16:58,510
if someone actually thought they were

402
00:17:05,699 --> 00:17:01,600
going to storm area 50 you know area 51

403
00:17:07,740 --> 00:17:05,709
and actually break in it just was not it

404
00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:07,750
was not a good call and you know after

405
00:17:12,210 --> 00:17:09,760
Facebook took down the site and then

406
00:17:14,340 --> 00:17:12,220
they put it back up because you know the

407
00:17:16,220 --> 00:17:14,350
the person who initiated was saying you

408
00:17:18,809 --> 00:17:16,230
know really let's make it something else

409
00:17:20,429 --> 00:17:18,819
than that but I mean I was glad that

410
00:17:22,100 --> 00:17:20,439
actually Facebook took it down because

411
00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:22,110
they were there was someone asking

412
00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:23,919
everyone to do something illegal

413
00:17:28,799 --> 00:17:26,799
basically yeah

414
00:17:30,659 --> 00:17:28,809
what I thought was interesting and the

415
00:17:33,870 --> 00:17:30,669
story hasn't really been told very much

416
00:17:36,299 --> 00:17:33,880
as you know there's so much discussion

417
00:17:39,210 --> 00:17:36,309
around bob lazar and whether or not he's

418
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:39,220
legit or whatnot but it turns out he

419
00:17:44,130 --> 00:17:41,650
really had a lot to do with this whole

420
00:17:46,620 --> 00:17:44,140
storm area51 thing which is a you know

421
00:17:49,470 --> 00:17:46,630
in the storm area 51 is a massive story

422
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:49,480
but it seemed like that documentary

423
00:17:55,289 --> 00:17:52,570
jeremy Korbel did with bob lazar that

424
00:17:57,930 --> 00:17:55,299
came out and that generated some buzz

425
00:18:00,210 --> 00:17:57,940
but then when jeremy Korbel and bob

426
00:18:03,450 --> 00:18:00,220
lazar went on the Joe Rogan podcast I

427
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:03,460
know I I don't know if that was what led

428
00:18:09,419 --> 00:18:07,450
to all of this action but I was I'd

429
00:18:12,060 --> 00:18:09,429
listen to that podcast just recently to

430
00:18:12,810 --> 00:18:12,070
hear bob lazar talk to Joe Rogan and

431
00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:12,820
near the

432
00:18:17,669 --> 00:18:16,240
end of the interview Bob Lazar said you

433
00:18:19,710 --> 00:18:17,679
know like I don't know if it's a good

434
00:18:20,999 --> 00:18:19,720
idea for me to even have done this like

435
00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:21,009
everything every time I open my mouth

436
00:18:25,889 --> 00:18:23,950
that it creates problems and Joe Rogan

437
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:25,899
said in response like no this is

438
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:27,370
different this is going to be good you

439
00:18:29,399 --> 00:18:28,720
know people are gonna hear your side of

440
00:18:31,049 --> 00:18:29,409
the story

441
00:18:32,430 --> 00:18:31,059
and you know and I was just listening to

442
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:32,440
that a couple days ago and I'm thinking

443
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:34,000
like Bob Lazar is probably looking at

444
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:37,210
this storm area51 nonsense and yeah you

445
00:18:42,060 --> 00:18:40,090
know I should have shut up yeah well I

446
00:18:44,539 --> 00:18:42,070
know I hope our guest is being patient

447
00:18:46,950 --> 00:18:44,549
we're at least we're skipping the first

448
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:46,960
commercial break so he'll have we'll

449
00:18:52,830 --> 00:18:48,730
have some extra minutes there but anyway

450
00:18:55,289 --> 00:18:52,840
I personally thought that you know I

451
00:18:56,490 --> 00:18:55,299
always get email after I say something

452
00:18:58,289 --> 00:18:56,500
like this but I'm gonna say it anyway I

453
00:19:01,409 --> 00:18:58,299
personally thought that you know Joe

454
00:19:04,499 --> 00:19:01,419
Rogan was buying Bob Lazar 100% and I I

455
00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:04,509
just feel like Bob Lazar is being pushed

456
00:19:10,409 --> 00:19:07,840
at us to believe his story which I still

457
00:19:12,389 --> 00:19:10,419
don't and I just don't buy his story but

458
00:19:15,090 --> 00:19:12,399
that's my own personal opinion I know

459
00:19:17,759 --> 00:19:15,100
there's a lot of things that have rung

460
00:19:20,430 --> 00:19:17,769
true that he has been involved in that

461
00:19:22,409 --> 00:19:20,440
he talked about but overall I just feel

462
00:19:25,499 --> 00:19:22,419
like we're being forced to believe his

463
00:19:28,230 --> 00:19:25,509
story and I don't buy it

464
00:19:29,789 --> 00:19:28,240
I just don't buy it it's got to me it's

465
00:19:33,330 --> 00:19:29,799
got a bit of the almost like the

466
00:19:35,369 --> 00:19:33,340
Nostradamus of ufology where he said so

467
00:19:37,860 --> 00:19:35,379
much stuff that every so often you know

468
00:19:40,379 --> 00:19:37,870
things it just works out I think comes

469
00:19:42,450 --> 00:19:40,389
true so if you cherry pick what he got

470
00:19:44,639 --> 00:19:42,460
right you're he's doing pretty good yeah

471
00:19:47,070 --> 00:19:44,649
excellent that's a very good point

472
00:19:48,570 --> 00:19:47,080
Jordan as always it's always fun to talk

473
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:48,580
to you whether we're talking on the

474
00:19:53,340 --> 00:19:51,370
phone or on a podcast it's always a lot

475
00:19:54,690 --> 00:19:53,350
of fun thank you so much and once your

476
00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:54,700
throw out there where people can listen

477
00:19:59,970 --> 00:19:57,490
to your show if you search the nighttime

478
00:20:02,009 --> 00:19:59,980
podcast or go to nighttime podcast calm

479
00:20:03,389 --> 00:20:02,019
them anywhere you can get podcast UFO

480
00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:03,399
you can get my show with the exception

481
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:07,840
of kgr a radio that's not gonna happen

482
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:09,610
because you are under contract but

483
00:20:14,430 --> 00:20:12,129
anyway thanks so much thanks for having

484
00:20:16,759 --> 00:20:14,440
me man all right you take care you do

485
00:20:20,669 --> 00:20:16,769
all right our guest of this evening is

486
00:20:24,180 --> 00:20:20,679
Dan right and Dan joined the mutual UFO

487
00:20:26,580 --> 00:20:24,190
network MUFON back in 1978 thereafter he

488
00:20:28,710 --> 00:20:26,590
served variously on its

489
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:28,720
and board of directors as the

490
00:20:33,299 --> 00:20:30,850
organization's deputy director he

491
00:20:34,919 --> 00:20:33,309
oversaw thousands of UFO investigations

492
00:20:37,649 --> 00:20:34,929
across North America we're going to talk

493
00:20:39,419 --> 00:20:37,659
a little bit about that he wrote three

494
00:20:41,580 --> 00:20:39,429
chapters for the MUFON field

495
00:20:43,919 --> 00:20:41,590
investigators manual so that's

496
00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:43,929
interesting and for five years he

497
00:20:49,529 --> 00:20:46,720
conducted a MUFON project to transcribe

498
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:49,539
and analyze regressive hypnosis sessions

499
00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:52,480
related to possible alien abductions I

500
00:20:57,570 --> 00:20:54,190
find that very interesting as well

501
00:20:59,880 --> 00:20:57,580
welcome to the show Dan thanks it's

502
00:21:02,370 --> 00:20:59,890
really good to be with you and thanks

503
00:21:05,010 --> 00:21:02,380
for being patient as I mentioned before

504
00:21:08,039 --> 00:21:05,020
we are gonna sail all the way through to

505
00:21:10,740 --> 00:21:08,049
our hour one for a break so we have no

506
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:10,750
break so it's a little bit extra of a

507
00:21:14,639 --> 00:21:12,610
show and again I thank you for your

508
00:21:19,070 --> 00:21:14,649
patience waiting in the background for

509
00:21:23,490 --> 00:21:19,080
us so Dan I was curious about the area51

510
00:21:26,430 --> 00:21:23,500
discussion folks should know that years

511
00:21:30,029 --> 00:21:26,440
ago all of the saucers and beings and

512
00:21:34,289 --> 00:21:30,039
everything were moved to Utah to a place

513
00:21:38,389 --> 00:21:34,299
that's now called area 52 I could I

514
00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:38,399
thought that's what happened I love that

515
00:21:43,529 --> 00:21:42,159
yeah that's that's really good yeah yeah

516
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:43,539
all right I like the way this is

517
00:21:51,269 --> 00:21:48,610
starting already Dan so what is your

518
00:21:52,710 --> 00:21:51,279
what what got you involved in the UFO

519
00:21:55,980 --> 00:21:52,720
topic what's what sparked your interest

520
00:21:59,690 --> 00:21:55,990
to begin with okay I'll take a deep

521
00:22:02,100 --> 00:21:59,700
breath this goes back to my father and

522
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:02,110
1967 he was a truck driver

523
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:05,710
he drove an 18-wheeler but hauling bread

524
00:22:11,639 --> 00:22:09,850
two terminals outlets were and from

525
00:22:15,210 --> 00:22:11,649
there they were taken to grocery stores

526
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:15,220
but he was full fledged 18-wheel truck

527
00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:19,690
driver and he very routinely like three

528
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:23,350
times a week went up the Lake Michigan

529
00:22:27,630 --> 00:22:25,330
coast

530
00:22:29,850 --> 00:22:27,640
we're from Michigan were the only ones

531
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:29,860
in America who can show you where we

532
00:22:37,889 --> 00:22:33,850
live by holding up a right hand the

533
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:37,899
mitten facing your face so he'd be going

534
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:40,130
up the outside

535
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:42,410
my hand up the little finger and it was

536
00:22:48,910 --> 00:22:46,210
a US highway 131 he had done this

537
00:22:51,970 --> 00:22:48,920
literally hundreds of times if not a

538
00:22:55,330 --> 00:22:51,980
thousand he knew every yard light every

539
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:55,340
tractor path off the road on this

540
00:23:00,940 --> 00:22:57,650
particular night he had dumped his load

541
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:00,950
and was coming back down us 131 going

542
00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:04,730
south when he noticed he had earlier

543
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:06,710
noticed that there was a full moon kind

544
00:23:12,610 --> 00:23:09,290
of a Harvest Moon out to the west over

545
00:23:15,340 --> 00:23:12,620
Lake Michigan but now to the east he saw

546
00:23:20,350 --> 00:23:15,350
something that was kind of mimicking

547
00:23:25,660 --> 00:23:20,360
that moon it was spherical and it was

548
00:23:28,990 --> 00:23:25,670
amber to orange coloration it he was

549
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:29,000
trying to judge how far away it was so

550
00:23:35,290 --> 00:23:31,910
he could tell how big it was he took it

551
00:23:38,110 --> 00:23:35,300
to be like how sized and by that he

552
00:23:43,060 --> 00:23:38,120
would mean his own bungalow which was

553
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:43,070
about 25 30 feet and in diameter and it

554
00:23:50,950 --> 00:23:46,610
was pulsating over about seven seconds

555
00:23:53,230 --> 00:23:50,960
it would go from very bright to dimming

556
00:23:55,330 --> 00:23:53,240
dimming dimming until there was just a

557
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:55,340
ring of light around the outside with a

558
00:24:00,100 --> 00:23:58,010
dark Center and then in another seven

559
00:24:03,190 --> 00:24:00,110
seconds it would go back to brightness

560
00:24:05,770 --> 00:24:03,200
and he thought that was pretty strange

561
00:24:08,050 --> 00:24:05,780
he's the only one on the road and he was

562
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:08,060
hoping that he'd come across another

563
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:10,010
motorist that he could flash his lights

564
00:24:17,380 --> 00:24:14,480
to and but he didn't and finally after

565
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:17,390
about 15 miles this thing has stayed

566
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:20,000
right even with his truck and he thinks

567
00:24:25,090 --> 00:24:22,250
about a quarter mile away going over

568
00:24:28,540 --> 00:24:25,100
farm fields and just oh maybe 20 feet

569
00:24:30,550 --> 00:24:28,550
off the ground he finally decided to

570
00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:30,560
pull his truck over to under the

571
00:24:39,070 --> 00:24:36,110
shoulder and just sat in his cab with

572
00:24:41,770 --> 00:24:39,080
his with the window down staring at this

573
00:24:44,110 --> 00:24:41,780
thing which was doing nothing but this

574
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:44,120
brightening and dimming when there was a

575
00:24:48,670 --> 00:24:46,850
huge pounding on the rider door of his

576
00:24:51,190 --> 00:24:48,680
truck that set his head to the ceiling

577
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:51,200
it was a motorist who had been trying to

578
00:24:55,900 --> 00:24:54,050
catch up with this ball of light

579
00:24:59,020 --> 00:24:55,910
and he had pulled up behind my dad's

580
00:25:01,420 --> 00:24:59,030
truck so they got out by the side of it

581
00:25:04,450 --> 00:25:01,430
and just stared for a couple minutes

582
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:04,460
my dad finally said I've got a gun in

583
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:06,710
the truck I carry money sometimes so I'm

584
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:10,730
authorized and I don't think I could

585
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:13,010
pull my truck into it but I know just up

586
00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:15,050
here 50 yards there's a tractor pass

587
00:25:20,140 --> 00:25:17,660
into that field we could get into your

588
00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:20,150
car and get really close to this thing

589
00:25:26,190 --> 00:25:22,640
and the other guy said you know I think

590
00:25:29,290 --> 00:25:26,200
I'm about as close as I want right now

591
00:25:32,110 --> 00:25:29,300
he just barely had those words out of

592
00:25:34,030 --> 00:25:32,120
his mouth when in an instant it

593
00:25:37,990 --> 00:25:34,040
approached from a quarter mile away to

594
00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:38,000
within a hundred yards silently old

595
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:40,400
pulsating well that put the other guy

596
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:42,710
over the edge he threw gravel with his

597
00:25:48,820 --> 00:25:46,640
tires getting out of there my dad he had

598
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:48,830
been a world war two veteran he was a

599
00:25:55,090 --> 00:25:53,090
kind of a tough guy and but with the

600
00:25:57,550 --> 00:25:55,100
other guy gone he didn't have quite

601
00:26:01,450 --> 00:25:57,560
enough courage to walk into that field

602
00:26:04,750 --> 00:26:01,460
by himself so he finally started up the

603
00:26:07,060 --> 00:26:04,760
truck again went up over a long hill and

604
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:07,070
he looked in his rearview mirror as he

605
00:26:13,750 --> 00:26:10,130
reached the crest and it had stayed over

606
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:13,760
that field so a dockworker back at the

607
00:26:16,980 --> 00:26:15,650
bakery said you look like you've seen a

608
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:16,990
ghost

609
00:26:22,540 --> 00:26:20,690
that morning instead of his standard

610
00:26:23,530 --> 00:26:22,550
routine of eating breakfast and then

611
00:26:25,690 --> 00:26:23,540
going to bed

612
00:26:28,630 --> 00:26:25,700
he ate breakfast and then went to a

613
00:26:32,350 --> 00:26:28,640
bookstore and he bought every UFO book

614
00:26:34,980 --> 00:26:32,360
on their shelves well over the years he

615
00:26:38,020 --> 00:26:34,990
started passing them on to me I was a

616
00:26:39,910 --> 00:26:38,030
junior in college when this occurred I

617
00:26:41,410 --> 00:26:39,920
was home a couple of weeks later and I

618
00:26:44,830 --> 00:26:41,420
heard the story and I thought well

619
00:26:49,150 --> 00:26:44,840
that's that's strange but I didn't have

620
00:26:51,490 --> 00:26:49,160
any compelling notion about it but over

621
00:26:53,860 --> 00:26:51,500
the years he was passing these books on

622
00:26:57,100 --> 00:26:53,870
to me and I was reading them and finally

623
00:26:59,620 --> 00:26:57,110
by 78 I said you know I think I want to

624
00:27:03,250 --> 00:26:59,630
be part of the solution to this thing so

625
00:27:05,530 --> 00:27:03,260
I joined MUFON because unlike the Center

626
00:27:07,100 --> 00:27:05,540
for UFO studies MUFON did actual

627
00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:07,110
investigations

628
00:27:12,259 --> 00:27:09,809
and I started as a local investigator

629
00:27:14,659 --> 00:27:12,269
and became a state director for several

630
00:27:17,630 --> 00:27:14,669
years and then I was appointed to the

631
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:17,640
MUFON board of directors and it carried

632
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:18,690
on from there

633
00:27:27,769 --> 00:27:24,210
Wow ah that same year of 78 I had two

634
00:27:30,940 --> 00:27:27,779
close encounters of my own just 19 days

635
00:27:34,940 --> 00:27:30,950
apart I'll try to handle these quickly

636
00:27:39,730 --> 00:27:34,950
the first one occurred as I was driving

637
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:39,740
with a I was riding with a driver on

638
00:27:48,350 --> 00:27:42,960
i-94 which connects Detroit and Chicago

639
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:48,360
and we were in the cornfields near not

640
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:51,450
too far from Battle Creek just moving

641
00:27:55,310 --> 00:27:53,610
along headed toward Kalamazoo where we

642
00:27:57,970 --> 00:27:55,320
were going to pick up on some work the

643
00:28:02,180 --> 00:27:57,980
next day when I saw something

644
00:28:04,850 --> 00:28:02,190
approaching us it was beyond the

645
00:28:07,639 --> 00:28:04,860
eastbound lanes and kind of a line of

646
00:28:10,970 --> 00:28:07,649
trees that so often interstates have but

647
00:28:14,029 --> 00:28:10,980
I could tell is with glimpses of it that

648
00:28:17,060 --> 00:28:14,039
this wasn't a regular aircraft it had

649
00:28:19,490 --> 00:28:17,070
two red lights as if you would have a

650
00:28:23,509 --> 00:28:19,500
red light on each wingtip well that

651
00:28:27,620 --> 00:28:23,519
would violate FAA rules so I told her to

652
00:28:29,899 --> 00:28:27,630
stop the car and she pulled off and I'll

653
00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:29,909
always think until the day I died that

654
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:32,760
this thing reacted to our stopping the

655
00:28:39,250 --> 00:28:36,330
car because it made a very tight left

656
00:28:43,129 --> 00:28:39,260
turn and came right down over us just

657
00:28:46,009 --> 00:28:43,139
maybe 200 feet above us it was what some

658
00:28:48,529 --> 00:28:46,019
people call a boomerang others say a

659
00:28:50,539 --> 00:28:48,539
triangle and I understand why because

660
00:28:53,750 --> 00:28:50,549
the shape of it it kind of splits the

661
00:28:58,039 --> 00:28:53,760
difference the the back side of it is

662
00:29:01,340 --> 00:28:58,049
kind of indented but it was Oh as big or

663
00:29:04,639 --> 00:29:01,350
bigger than a b-52 in this triangle

664
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:04,649
shape it was all black kind of a

665
00:29:12,740 --> 00:29:08,159
charcoal black there was no door no

666
00:29:16,250 --> 00:29:12,750
window no insignia it was just a mass

667
00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:16,260
and as it passed over us a couple

668
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:18,960
hundred feet up it was only doing maybe

669
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:20,650
20 miles an hour

670
00:29:27,570 --> 00:29:23,890
it went over a a farm field that had

671
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:27,580
just been harvested from corn and it did

672
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:31,330
such an incredible turnaround there of

673
00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:35,170
us a circular motion but using only a

674
00:29:41,610 --> 00:29:37,600
matter of several feet almost like a

675
00:29:45,270 --> 00:29:41,620
ballerinas pirouette and by now it's

676
00:29:47,850 --> 00:29:45,280
doing jogging speed and it moved over a

677
00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:47,860
little clump of trees in the middle of

678
00:29:54,270 --> 00:29:50,550
that field and just stopped and hovered

679
00:29:57,870 --> 00:29:54,280
silent well as it was in the midst of

680
00:30:02,250 --> 00:29:57,880
performing that the woman shouted at me

681
00:30:05,549 --> 00:30:02,260
run Dan run after it at the time I was a

682
00:30:08,460 --> 00:30:05,559
road runner so I thought yeah great idea

683
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:08,470
and I'm looking kind of up at it as I

684
00:30:14,460 --> 00:30:10,960
start running forward forgetting that

685
00:30:16,970 --> 00:30:14,470
every interstate has a wire fence and I

686
00:30:20,340 --> 00:30:16,980
bound it off that like a trampoline

687
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:20,350
landed on my butt and my first thought

688
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:23,050
was great I just really impressed those

689
00:30:28,919 --> 00:30:26,770
people whoever's in the tip beam us up

690
00:30:33,090 --> 00:30:28,929
Scotty there's no intelligent life down

691
00:30:35,610 --> 00:30:33,100
here but at the same time as that

692
00:30:39,410 --> 00:30:35,620
embarrassment I was getting a queasy

693
00:30:42,540 --> 00:30:39,420
feeling that was certainly it wasn't

694
00:30:46,049 --> 00:30:42,550
external it was just me feeling like I

695
00:30:48,690 --> 00:30:46,059
don't know if I should try to climb this

696
00:30:51,330 --> 00:30:48,700
fence and walk over to it it's I'm not

697
00:30:54,530 --> 00:30:51,340
supposed to do that I'm supposed to just

698
00:30:57,419 --> 00:30:54,540
stand here and watch this finally I saw

699
00:30:59,370 --> 00:30:57,429
taillights of a car on a dirt road that

700
00:31:02,250 --> 00:30:59,380
was set back a couple of hundred yards

701
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:02,260
from the interstate and I took a chance

702
00:31:08,850 --> 00:31:06,010
that that was also somebody taking in

703
00:31:14,430 --> 00:31:08,860
this event I raced down that corn roll

704
00:31:17,310 --> 00:31:14,440
and found a 40-ish man and his

705
00:31:19,950 --> 00:31:17,320
adolescent son outside their car and

706
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:19,960
looking at this same boomerang if you

707
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:23,290
will so I as I was telling them the

708
00:31:29,730 --> 00:31:26,050
early part of this how the woman and I

709
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:29,740
came to encounter it it very slowly

710
00:31:34,140 --> 00:31:33,610
started moving jogging speed and then 15

711
00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:34,150
or

712
00:31:39,510 --> 00:31:36,910
and so on picked up speed staying very

713
00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:39,520
close to the ground until it was out of

714
00:31:45,630 --> 00:31:42,670
sight that was the end of event one

715
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:45,640
number two happened two weeks and five

716
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:49,810
days later it's a Friday night and I was

717
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:51,970
hooked up at that point early on I'm

718
00:31:56,850 --> 00:31:54,910
very green and as an investigator only

719
00:31:59,430 --> 00:31:56,860
been with MUFON for a matter of months

720
00:32:03,000 --> 00:31:59,440
but I was hooked up with the local

721
00:32:06,990 --> 00:32:03,010
police departments and and State

722
00:32:09,870 --> 00:32:07,000
Department airports they don't want

723
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:09,880
these calls and MUFON does so it's a

724
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:12,850
nice arrangement I got three calls

725
00:32:18,180 --> 00:32:15,610
through the Lansing Police in about ten

726
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:18,190
minutes on this Friday evening they were

727
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:21,010
all talking about an individual red

728
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:24,250
light like volleyball or basketball size

729
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:28,090
that was floating and hovering around a

730
00:32:34,950 --> 00:32:31,090
major river that goes through Lansing

731
00:32:38,190 --> 00:32:34,960
the capital I lived in a town about ten

732
00:32:41,370 --> 00:32:38,200
miles west of Lansing so I went out into

733
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:41,380
my backyard as dusk was falling thinking

734
00:32:48,060 --> 00:32:45,370
maybe I'll get lucky or I'll figure out

735
00:32:50,010 --> 00:32:48,070
that this is something normal that's you

736
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:50,020
know where most of our investigations

737
00:32:57,570 --> 00:32:53,890
lead something that I can explain to

738
00:32:59,970 --> 00:32:57,580
them so as I was watching and stars are

739
00:33:03,350 --> 00:32:59,980
starting to pop out as the darkness is

740
00:33:07,530 --> 00:33:03,360
falling what I thought were two stars

741
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:07,540
suddenly started moving one looked like

742
00:33:13,620 --> 00:33:09,910
it was going down but actually in

743
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:13,630
retrospect it was moving away and so the

744
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:16,330
the appearance was that it was lowering

745
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:18,850
in the sky the other one looked like it

746
00:33:23,810 --> 00:33:20,890
was rising and that's because it was

747
00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:23,820
coming closer to where I lived and

748
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:28,000
rising up in and my from my perspective

749
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:31,210
as it got closer I could tell this is

750
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:34,090
not one light this is four lights and

751
00:33:41,250 --> 00:33:37,810
they're in a square about ten feet to a

752
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:41,260
side at opposite corners were two red

753
00:33:47,910 --> 00:33:44,050
lights and two green lights and they

754
00:33:52,490 --> 00:33:47,920
were blinking at just about this pace

755
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:52,500
blink blink they went past my town and

756
00:33:57,150 --> 00:33:55,210
continued west well again

757
00:33:59,670 --> 00:33:57,160
I didn't know a whole lot about the UFO

758
00:34:02,610 --> 00:33:59,680
subject but I knew that every airplane

759
00:34:04,740 --> 00:34:02,620
in the world could have only one green

760
00:34:09,690 --> 00:34:04,750
light this head - mm-hmm

761
00:34:14,460 --> 00:34:09,700
so I shouted in to my then wife who is

762
00:34:19,890 --> 00:34:14,470
so taken by this subject that she went

763
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:19,900
back in to do the dishes she she was

764
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:23,169
really envious of my interest in this

765
00:34:28,590 --> 00:34:26,320
and people out there are nodding yeah

766
00:34:31,130 --> 00:34:28,600
those who have been involved in UFO

767
00:34:33,150 --> 00:34:31,140
investigations it can strain a

768
00:34:36,090 --> 00:34:33,160
relationship mm-hmm

769
00:34:39,390 --> 00:34:36,100
so I shouted in I've got a drive and I

770
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:39,400
jumped into my Mustang and tore out onto

771
00:34:47,220 --> 00:34:43,690
the road going farther west by now these

772
00:34:51,150 --> 00:34:47,230
lights are most of a half-mile ahead of

773
00:34:53,310 --> 00:34:51,160
me and I'm straining with my eyes I did

774
00:34:56,010 --> 00:34:53,320
have good vision trying to figure out

775
00:34:58,260 --> 00:34:56,020
what these lights were attached to and I

776
00:35:00,960 --> 00:34:58,270
finally realized they're not attached to

777
00:35:03,870 --> 00:35:00,970
anything they're just for volleyball

778
00:35:08,070 --> 00:35:03,880
sighs lights at about ten feet apart

779
00:35:11,550 --> 00:35:08,080
that are floating along down over this

780
00:35:14,940 --> 00:35:11,560
road as we got close to an another

781
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:14,950
village some seven miles west of my

782
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:17,680
house suddenly as we were approaching

783
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:20,410
that the lights shot across the road at

784
00:35:26,820 --> 00:35:23,440
an angle this little village is set back

785
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:26,830
from from the road about 50 yards or so

786
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:29,530
and as it went over that little one

787
00:35:37,170 --> 00:35:33,040
block Business District as it were of

788
00:35:40,530 --> 00:35:37,180
the village the whole sky from the

789
00:35:44,340 --> 00:35:40,540
ground to many thousands of feet up lit

790
00:35:46,650 --> 00:35:44,350
up for an instant that gave me the

791
00:35:49,260 --> 00:35:46,660
impression well he just took a flash

792
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:49,270
photo of this village which is just a

793
00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:52,810
nothing place but the lights kept going

794
00:35:57,270 --> 00:35:54,880
on a Northwest direction and I knew

795
00:35:58,950 --> 00:35:57,280
there were road went straight West so I

796
00:36:01,650 --> 00:35:58,960
didn't it's going to have to get off it

797
00:36:04,049 --> 00:36:01,660
if I was still gonna chase these things

798
00:36:05,970 --> 00:36:04,059
so I found a gravel road to the north

799
00:36:09,140 --> 00:36:05,980
and then one to the west and another

800
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:09,150
north and so on but in the process I'm

801
00:36:14,910 --> 00:36:12,250
falling farther and farther behind these

802
00:36:17,370 --> 00:36:14,920
lights they're doing as they say how the

803
00:36:20,759 --> 00:36:17,380
crow flies that the lights were going

804
00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:20,769
straight and I wasn't the roads were

805
00:36:26,370 --> 00:36:23,950
very rollin I'm doing way too fast

806
00:36:30,839 --> 00:36:26,380
hoping I don't encounter another car

807
00:36:33,329 --> 00:36:30,849
coming the other way when after several

808
00:36:35,130 --> 00:36:33,339
minutes of this and I'm questioning Dan

809
00:36:38,730 --> 00:36:35,140
you putting your life at risk now is

810
00:36:41,789 --> 00:36:38,740
this worth it and I'm thinking that over

811
00:36:45,660 --> 00:36:41,799
when I came into a clearing and there

812
00:36:48,509 --> 00:36:45,670
they were hovering over a farm field and

813
00:36:50,819 --> 00:36:48,519
I pulled off onto a driveway there was a

814
00:36:55,859 --> 00:36:50,829
farmhouse way back that was dark

815
00:36:59,519 --> 00:36:55,869
I put pulled my car into an angle to

816
00:37:02,279 --> 00:36:59,529
face these lights and I knew nothing

817
00:37:05,099 --> 00:37:02,289
about Morse code but I started flashing

818
00:37:07,970 --> 00:37:05,109
my headlights over and over in the same

819
00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:07,980
pattern kind of mimicking Morse code

820
00:37:14,339 --> 00:37:10,720
thinking I want to get something other

821
00:37:18,420 --> 00:37:14,349
than this monotonous red green blinking

822
00:37:20,249 --> 00:37:18,430
but that did no good so after some three

823
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:20,259
minutes or five minutes of that I

824
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:23,200
thought well it's time to do what you

825
00:37:28,499 --> 00:37:25,690
always said you do on the interstate you

826
00:37:32,069 --> 00:37:28,509
didn't walk over to him walk over to

827
00:37:34,349 --> 00:37:32,079
this so I opened the door of my Mustang

828
00:37:39,509 --> 00:37:34,359
and I stood up between the body and the

829
00:37:42,390 --> 00:37:39,519
car door and like BAM my my mind went

830
00:37:44,940 --> 00:37:42,400
blank I don't know how long I stood

831
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:44,950
there in that same spot between the body

832
00:37:47,460 --> 00:37:46,930
and the door of my car could have been a

833
00:37:51,049 --> 00:37:47,470
minute

834
00:37:54,359 --> 00:37:51,059
could have been an hour when I came to

835
00:37:56,670 --> 00:37:54,369
consciousness again I'm you know I'm

836
00:37:59,519 --> 00:37:56,680
confused thinking what the hell was that

837
00:38:01,730 --> 00:37:59,529
weird the lights go they're not in front

838
00:38:04,620 --> 00:38:01,740
of me anymore and I whirled around

839
00:38:08,069 --> 00:38:04,630
instinctively and now they're behind me

840
00:38:11,910 --> 00:38:08,079
in an adjacent field still just over the

841
00:38:15,549 --> 00:38:11,920
ground 1012 feet up still blink blinking

842
00:38:18,449 --> 00:38:15,559
red and green the thought of walking

843
00:38:22,269 --> 00:38:18,459
over to them does not occur to me again

844
00:38:25,420 --> 00:38:22,279
instead I got another queasy feeling I'm

845
00:38:28,029 --> 00:38:25,430
intruding on something whoever's behind

846
00:38:31,479 --> 00:38:28,039
these lights they've got an agenda and

847
00:38:34,839 --> 00:38:31,489
I'm holding them up I've got to drive

848
00:38:38,799 --> 00:38:34,849
home started my car and drove away

849
00:38:41,469 --> 00:38:38,809
and I've probably been asked by jaw a

850
00:38:46,829 --> 00:38:41,479
gate people a hundred times since then

851
00:38:49,989 --> 00:38:46,839
you confronted a UFO and you drove away

852
00:38:54,339 --> 00:38:49,999
yes yes I did

853
00:38:58,299 --> 00:38:54,349
Wow but that while it was visually it

854
00:39:01,029 --> 00:38:58,309
was less stunning and then that original

855
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:01,039
boomerang or triangle the same one that

856
00:39:07,329 --> 00:39:03,170
was responsible for the Hudson Valley

857
00:39:10,799 --> 00:39:07,339
sightings and 81 82 83 I just happened

858
00:39:16,420 --> 00:39:10,809
to see it a little earlier in 78 but

859
00:39:21,489 --> 00:39:16,430
yeah that was the second one really

860
00:39:25,359 --> 00:39:21,499
played on me it bothered me to the point

861
00:39:29,469 --> 00:39:25,369
I had to stay in in this application for

862
00:39:32,769 --> 00:39:29,479
the rest of my life Wow interesting you

863
00:39:35,289 --> 00:39:32,779
know you talk about this square I had a

864
00:39:40,089 --> 00:39:35,299
friend that had an account encounter of

865
00:39:42,609 --> 00:39:40,099
like a square like box shaped object now

866
00:39:46,059 --> 00:39:42,619
that started out as looking like a craft

867
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:46,069
and then he he basically said it

868
00:39:52,749 --> 00:39:49,130
eventually looked like it exploded into

869
00:39:55,179 --> 00:39:52,759
I think he said five lights that made a

870
00:39:57,549 --> 00:39:55,189
formation and and were reacting to each

871
00:40:00,669 --> 00:39:57,559
other which is such a bizarre story but

872
00:40:03,429 --> 00:40:00,679
you don't hear of too many like square

873
00:40:06,249 --> 00:40:03,439
type objects I think Jan Harrison had

874
00:40:07,359 --> 00:40:06,259
had something of the orange thing Square

875
00:40:09,069 --> 00:40:07,369
or something like that but you don't

876
00:40:11,739 --> 00:40:09,079
hear of a lot of square type objects

877
00:40:13,479 --> 00:40:11,749
right right in Lansing when I was

878
00:40:16,779 --> 00:40:13,489
starting out investigating there was a

879
00:40:21,189 --> 00:40:16,789
family that had a an encounter with a

880
00:40:26,489 --> 00:40:21,199
shoebox as they put it shaped it was

881
00:40:29,260 --> 00:40:26,499
perhaps 20 feet by 30 feet it was big

882
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:29,270
the one of there

883
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:32,930
children was outside feeding one of

884
00:40:38,530 --> 00:40:35,930
their dogs and noticed a reflection in

885
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:38,540
the dog's eyes and looked up and this

886
00:40:43,870 --> 00:40:40,610
thing is going right overhead the bottom

887
00:40:46,690 --> 00:40:43,880
of it was hundreds they thought of

888
00:40:49,300 --> 00:40:46,700
lights but it was shoebox shaped and

889
00:40:53,170 --> 00:40:49,310
belongs on the west side of Lansing and

890
00:40:55,810 --> 00:40:53,180
continued very slowly to a GM plant that

891
00:40:58,420 --> 00:40:55,820
was there and it was last seen hovering

892
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:58,430
over one of the buildings of that GM

893
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:00,560
factory interesting

894
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:02,690
no we haven't even talked ordinary

895
00:41:06,340 --> 00:41:04,970
people with extraordinary accounts

896
00:41:08,230 --> 00:41:06,350
that's right you know we haven't even

897
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:08,240
really touched on anything about what

898
00:41:12,730 --> 00:41:10,250
your books about yet I definitely want

899
00:41:16,750 --> 00:41:12,740
to get into that but before I do just a

900
00:41:20,500 --> 00:41:16,760
question you started MUFON back in 1978

901
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:20,510
what was MUFON like then compared to now

902
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:23,090
was it basically the same you know if

903
00:41:26,860 --> 00:41:24,890
you took away all that yeah it worked it

904
00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:26,870
wasn't a lot different it had been

905
00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:31,730
founded in 69 by Walt Andrus was an

906
00:41:39,340 --> 00:41:35,990
engineer I believe from Motorola first

907
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:39,350
in near Missouri I think in Illinois but

908
00:41:46,030 --> 00:41:42,890
near Missouri and then his job got

909
00:41:49,450 --> 00:41:46,040
switched to Texas and so he took the

910
00:41:52,810 --> 00:41:49,460
organization with him there it it had

911
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:52,820
grown rather quickly up to about a

912
00:41:58,480 --> 00:41:55,250
thousand or so and then it just stayed

913
00:42:02,230 --> 00:41:58,490
about that same number for any number of

914
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:02,240
years now I think there's about 3,500 in

915
00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:04,130
the organization but it's never been

916
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:08,240
huge right from the very beginning they

917
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:11,210
had an annual conference that they call

918
00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:14,330
a symposium it's more formal than a lot

919
00:42:19,630 --> 00:42:16,910
of conferences where there are 10 or a

920
00:42:23,620 --> 00:42:19,640
dozen speakers they they would do this

921
00:42:25,890 --> 00:42:23,630
every year but other than that it was

922
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:25,900
left to the individual state

923
00:42:30,340 --> 00:42:27,170
organizations

924
00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:30,350
I had an organization that was I got up

925
00:42:37,030 --> 00:42:33,310
to about 50 members I guess and and it

926
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:37,040
advanced from there after I left it and

927
00:42:43,060 --> 00:42:39,490
we had quarterly meetings you know you

928
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:43,070
don't want to overwhelm people with this

929
00:42:50,230 --> 00:42:46,480
but they want to get together frequently

930
00:42:53,260 --> 00:42:50,240
MUFON always had a monthly periodical

931
00:42:55,630 --> 00:42:53,270
called the UFO journal and that is still

932
00:42:58,930 --> 00:42:55,640
going now after we just celebrated our

933
00:42:59,500 --> 00:42:58,940
50th anniversary as an organization this

934
00:43:02,320 --> 00:42:59,510
summer

935
00:43:04,510 --> 00:43:02,330
yeah that's oh it's the short answer is

936
00:43:08,290 --> 00:43:04,520
it's not a lot different than it ever

937
00:43:10,620 --> 00:43:08,300
was uh-huh and let's let's talk about

938
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:10,630
your book because I I would like to know

939
00:43:16,510 --> 00:43:14,450
the genesis of what made you what made

940
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:16,520
you you know dive into this first of all

941
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:20,090
Bert let's talk about you know what the

942
00:43:25,890 --> 00:43:22,880
CIA lead that yeah idle is the title it

943
00:43:32,190 --> 00:43:25,900
starts with a though and there's no

944
00:43:34,990 --> 00:43:32,200
possessive word in it it's the CIA UFO

945
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:35,000
papers I'm sorry I got that it's on

946
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:37,730
Amazon its eldest some bookstores now

947
00:43:43,750 --> 00:43:40,130
but you can find it on Amazon I don't

948
00:43:48,580 --> 00:43:43,760
have the ISBN on me right now but just

949
00:43:52,060 --> 00:43:48,590
my name dan right and the UFO I mean the

950
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:52,070
CIA UFO papers I got you saying it wrong

951
00:43:58,180 --> 00:43:54,970
so I just I just put it up I don't I

952
00:44:03,340 --> 00:43:58,190
just put it up on the genesis of that is

953
00:44:07,090 --> 00:44:03,350
I will always thank Barack Obama that in

954
00:44:11,740 --> 00:44:07,100
the final week of his presidency he

955
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:11,750
directed the CIA to go to the National

956
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:16,640
Archives where they had put UFO CIA

957
00:44:23,590 --> 00:44:20,810
related UFO research papers for many

958
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:23,600
years this were documents that had once

959
00:44:30,370 --> 00:44:26,330
been classified had been released under

960
00:44:33,070 --> 00:44:30,380
FOIA but to view them you had to go to

961
00:44:36,190 --> 00:44:33,080
the National Archives and use one of

962
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:36,200
their four desktop computers you

963
00:44:45,490 --> 00:44:40,210
couldn't copy anything it was just

964
00:44:48,250 --> 00:44:45,500
cumbersome and so Obama directed them to

965
00:44:52,510 --> 00:44:48,260
put all the stuff on their own website

966
00:44:56,650 --> 00:44:52,520
the CIA website which they did and then

967
00:45:02,620 --> 00:44:56,660
some I heard about this it was

968
00:45:07,930 --> 00:45:02,630
January 17 of of of 2017 when this all

969
00:45:10,450 --> 00:45:07,940
that transfer occurred I phoned Jan

970
00:45:12,690 --> 00:45:10,460
Harrison now the international director

971
00:45:15,279 --> 00:45:12,700
or the executive director of MUFON and

972
00:45:18,819 --> 00:45:15,289
figuring that he was already putting a

973
00:45:22,210 --> 00:45:18,829
group together I would join the effort

974
00:45:25,089 --> 00:45:22,220
to see what there was to be seen from

975
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:25,099
these files and Jan said well actually

976
00:45:30,220 --> 00:45:27,200
there is no such group but you're free

977
00:45:32,260 --> 00:45:30,230
to create one hmm so I thought well

978
00:45:35,079 --> 00:45:32,270
before I start prevailing on other

979
00:45:36,670 --> 00:45:35,089
people to put in a great deal of effort

980
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:36,680
on this I'd better get the lay of the

981
00:45:44,740 --> 00:45:41,510
land I opened up now the CIA had said

982
00:45:48,789 --> 00:45:44,750
that they had just released a million

983
00:45:51,069 --> 00:45:48,799
pages on UFOs well it wasn't a million

984
00:45:53,829 --> 00:45:51,079
pages of anything it was about a hundred

985
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:53,839
and twenty thousand maybe pages of

986
00:46:01,660 --> 00:45:57,410
something but as I started pouring into

987
00:46:05,490 --> 00:46:01,670
him I started shaking my head everything

988
00:46:08,650 --> 00:46:05,500
under the Sun was in these files

989
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:08,660
virtually none of it 2% of it was

990
00:46:15,190 --> 00:46:11,690
actually ufo-related if you wanted to

991
00:46:21,460 --> 00:46:15,200
know all about Bulgaria's rail tonnage

992
00:46:24,460 --> 00:46:21,470
in 1956 it was there UFO's not so much

993
00:46:28,150 --> 00:46:24,470
so it took me five months of just

994
00:46:30,730 --> 00:46:28,160
sorting and reading to get all through

995
00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:30,740
all the chaff and find the wheat and I

996
00:46:38,410 --> 00:46:34,609
ended up with 550 documents that at

997
00:46:41,589 --> 00:46:38,420
least in part were UFO related most of

998
00:46:44,349 --> 00:46:41,599
these were reports sent in from various

999
00:46:47,170 --> 00:46:44,359
places in Europe and North Africa on

1000
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:47,180
what was happening locally what locals

1001
00:46:58,210 --> 00:46:54,890
had seen in the sky so I called back to

1002
00:47:00,519 --> 00:46:58,220
Jan arson has said you know it's not

1003
00:47:01,660 --> 00:47:00,529
such a big deal that I have to have a

1004
00:47:04,539 --> 00:47:01,670
group for this

1005
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:04,549
I think I'll since I'm already started

1006
00:47:09,710 --> 00:47:07,250
I'll just go ahead with it and see where

1007
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:11,660
the book came together quite quickly

1008
00:47:19,450 --> 00:47:15,119
from there I I was a career researcher

1009
00:47:23,540 --> 00:47:19,460
and and technical writer and so a

1010
00:47:26,540 --> 00:47:23,550
writing of a book that way wasn't a big

1011
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:26,550
deal for me and in seven months I got it

1012
00:47:34,270 --> 00:47:30,330
finished and Jan found us a publisher of

1013
00:47:37,849 --> 00:47:34,280
esoteric material and it went from there

1014
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:37,859
and what's your response since you've

1015
00:47:45,050 --> 00:47:40,410
had the book out have you had a lot of

1016
00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:45,060
good feedback since it's been out and

1017
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:47,609
nobody has written to me or phoned me to

1018
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:48,930
say Wow

1019
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:52,970
well a couple of friends I've been doing

1020
00:48:00,800 --> 00:47:57,450
podcasts and AM radio since then and I

1021
00:48:03,470 --> 00:48:00,810
don't know what the what the audience is

1022
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:03,480
I you know I guess they say sure this is

1023
00:48:08,359 --> 00:48:06,570
this is cool this is strange but it

1024
00:48:11,450 --> 00:48:08,369
wasn't anything that they didn't already

1025
00:48:14,270 --> 00:48:11,460
suspect of the CIA now did you were

1026
00:48:16,310 --> 00:48:14,280
there any any big surprises that you

1027
00:48:24,500 --> 00:48:16,320
found in those five hundred plus

1028
00:48:27,290 --> 00:48:24,510
documents yes one the major surprise for

1029
00:48:30,140 --> 00:48:27,300
me I shouldn't have been surprised there

1030
00:48:33,380 --> 00:48:30,150
was an office within the CIA called the

1031
00:48:38,570 --> 00:48:33,390
office of scientific intelligence OSI

1032
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:38,580
and they were made responsible for all

1033
00:48:43,700 --> 00:48:41,010
things you have low related over the

1034
00:48:47,420 --> 00:48:43,710
years that when it first formed in the

1035
00:48:52,370 --> 00:48:47,430
early fifties the CIA formed in the late

1036
00:48:56,300 --> 00:48:52,380
40s and by the early 50s this OSI is up

1037
00:49:00,849 --> 00:48:56,310
and running roughshod we were also in a

1038
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:00,859
cold war with the Russians OSI was

1039
00:49:07,790 --> 00:49:05,010
mostly if you count up the heads mostly

1040
00:49:10,970 --> 00:49:07,800
cynical about the CIA about the UFO

1041
00:49:14,210 --> 00:49:10,980
subject but there were always a few and

1042
00:49:17,390 --> 00:49:14,220
in decision-making capacities that

1043
00:49:20,829 --> 00:49:17,400
wanted to know more so they never got

1044
00:49:23,089 --> 00:49:20,839
out of the business but they insisted

1045
00:49:26,150 --> 00:49:23,099
always on anonymity

1046
00:49:28,969 --> 00:49:26,160
t-they they saw what was happening to

1047
00:49:31,940 --> 00:49:28,979
project Bluebook and the air force being

1048
00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:31,950
made into a laughingstock over UFOs and

1049
00:49:37,900 --> 00:49:34,710
the CIA was not about to be the

1050
00:49:41,529 --> 00:49:37,910
intelligence community's Bluebook so

1051
00:49:47,779 --> 00:49:41,539
while they were interested in in fact in

1052
00:49:53,170 --> 00:49:47,789
53 set up a group of scientists mainly

1053
00:49:56,349 --> 00:49:53,180
to look at a series of prominent cases

1054
00:50:02,630 --> 00:49:56,359
and these were all quote-unquote

1055
00:50:07,190 --> 00:50:02,640
non-believers they insisted that the

1056
00:50:10,130 --> 00:50:07,200
name CIA or any mention of the agency be

1057
00:50:12,380 --> 00:50:10,140
kept out of any written material that

1058
00:50:15,559 --> 00:50:12,390
has never wavered

1059
00:50:18,979 --> 00:50:15,569
I'll bet - even today the CIA has

1060
00:50:21,799 --> 00:50:18,989
somebody or a few somebodies looking at

1061
00:50:24,499 --> 00:50:21,809
the latest evidence they won't let it go

1062
00:50:28,219 --> 00:50:24,509
but they will deny in court that they've

1063
00:50:31,759 --> 00:50:28,229
ever been interested mmm yeah I don't

1064
00:50:35,839 --> 00:50:31,769
doubt that at all 1952 a lot was going

1065
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:35,849
on what why is that considered a pivotal

1066
00:50:43,339 --> 00:50:39,710
year when it comes to yeah see after

1067
00:50:46,339 --> 00:50:43,349
after Roswell and Kenneth Arnold

1068
00:50:49,999 --> 00:50:46,349
sighting in the Cascades that coined the

1069
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:50,009
term flying saucers the rest of 47 had

1070
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:53,130
all kinds of reports coming in from the

1071
00:51:01,940 --> 00:50:55,920
public about saucers and other kinds of

1072
00:51:07,150 --> 00:51:01,950
craft mostly saucers but after say early

1073
00:51:11,180 --> 00:51:07,160
48 the whole subject just died down 49

1074
00:51:16,069 --> 00:51:11,190
50 51 there were virtually no reports

1075
00:51:20,450 --> 00:51:16,079
from the public and so the CIA could

1076
00:51:22,670 --> 00:51:20,460
breathe a sigh of relief like man we

1077
00:51:26,479 --> 00:51:22,680
don't have to shut these things down

1078
00:51:30,739 --> 00:51:26,489
with cynical talk the public has just

1079
00:51:34,009 --> 00:51:30,749
learned that they're not UFOs at all

1080
00:51:37,009 --> 00:51:34,019
there is Oh is there identifiable flying

1081
00:51:41,109 --> 00:51:37,019
objects they are Venus

1082
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:41,119
Mars their conventional aircrafts and

1083
00:51:48,889 --> 00:51:44,729
meteors and ball lightning and the whole

1084
00:51:51,949 --> 00:51:48,899
nine yards of IFOS but they felt that

1085
00:51:57,139 --> 00:51:51,959
they had a good handle on the whole

1086
00:51:59,569 --> 00:51:57,149
thing and then 52 occurred all over the

1087
00:52:01,279 --> 00:51:59,579
world there was suddenly a whole bunch

1088
00:52:05,929 --> 00:52:01,289
of activity

1089
00:52:09,919 --> 00:52:05,939
it started in March by now the the OSI

1090
00:52:13,009 --> 00:52:09,929
had put together a report of a form

1091
00:52:18,609 --> 00:52:13,019
called information from foreign

1092
00:52:21,919 --> 00:52:18,619
documents or radio broadcasts I FDR be a

1093
00:52:25,579 --> 00:52:21,929
classic stumbling over themselves to

1094
00:52:29,479 --> 00:52:25,589
name a form but and these would be

1095
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:29,489
filled out by operatives around the

1096
00:52:35,630 --> 00:52:32,130
world mostly in Europe again and North

1097
00:52:39,949 --> 00:52:35,640
Africa operatives otherwise known as

1098
00:52:42,709 --> 00:52:39,959
spooks or spies when they weren't busy

1099
00:52:47,599 --> 00:52:42,719
with something russia-related they would

1100
00:52:51,469 --> 00:52:47,609
pass along that locals had seen UFOs on

1101
00:52:54,889 --> 00:52:51,479
in late April on the same day there were

1102
00:52:57,979 --> 00:52:54,899
all of these are multiple witness events

1103
00:53:01,039 --> 00:52:57,989
in Roseville Michigan which is a suburb

1104
00:53:04,569 --> 00:53:01,049
of Detroit as well as Yuma Arizona

1105
00:53:07,879 --> 00:53:04,579
they were looking at odd things tumbling

1106
00:53:10,039 --> 00:53:07,889
rocket shaped things and the low in the

1107
00:53:12,949 --> 00:53:10,049
sky on May 1st

1108
00:53:15,279 --> 00:53:12,959
George Air Force Base in California and

1109
00:53:19,509 --> 00:53:15,289
then also in the first week of May

1110
00:53:23,419 --> 00:53:19,519
Keesler Air Force Base and Mississippi

1111
00:53:27,039 --> 00:53:23,429
multiple Airmen and officers were seeing

1112
00:53:32,089 --> 00:53:27,049
things very close to the ground it

1113
00:53:36,289 --> 00:53:32,099
continued late May in San Antonio there

1114
00:53:40,479 --> 00:53:36,299
was a ship at Port in a West African

1115
00:53:44,179 --> 00:53:40,489
country named Gabon where the ship's

1116
00:53:47,389 --> 00:53:44,189
master and his first mate saw something

1117
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:47,399
rise up from the ground do multiple

1118
00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:49,280
90-degree turns and

1119
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:53,110
finally move off into the sunset a

1120
00:53:58,720 --> 00:53:56,330
really cool case occurred in July and

1121
00:53:59,440 --> 00:53:58,730
East German father and his adult

1122
00:54:05,920 --> 00:53:59,450
daughter

1123
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:05,930
riding his motorcycle when a tire blew

1124
00:54:10,690 --> 00:54:09,050
as he's starting to attend to that the

1125
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:10,700
daughter called his attention to

1126
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:14,000
something that was stirring in the woods

1127
00:54:18,940 --> 00:54:16,610
they were interested enough that they

1128
00:54:22,030 --> 00:54:18,950
walked into the woods to see what that

1129
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:22,040
was about and as they got well into it

1130
00:54:28,510 --> 00:54:24,650
and saw that there was a clearing within

1131
00:54:30,820 --> 00:54:28,520
the woods there was a very unusual I

1132
00:54:35,470 --> 00:54:30,830
guess you'd call it a saucer

1133
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:35,480
it was round be bound read in a circle

1134
00:54:47,290 --> 00:54:40,490
but above a small compartment there was

1135
00:54:51,940 --> 00:54:47,300
a 10-foot black cone outside it were two

1136
00:54:55,570 --> 00:54:51,950
small entities wearing metallic kind of

1137
00:54:58,720 --> 00:54:55,580
suits and had lamps on their waste that

1138
00:55:00,910 --> 00:54:58,730
would flash from time to time they stood

1139
00:55:03,790 --> 00:55:00,920
there just 30 feet away from the scene

1140
00:55:05,650 --> 00:55:03,800
taking it in when the daughter said

1141
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:05,660
something to her father and that was

1142
00:55:12,610 --> 00:55:08,930
overheard the two entities raced back

1143
00:55:16,950 --> 00:55:12,620
inside and momentarily it rose up with a

1144
00:55:18,970 --> 00:55:16,960
fiery noisy exit and they found a

1145
00:55:21,610 --> 00:55:18,980
depression in the ground where it had

1146
00:55:23,590 --> 00:55:21,620
rested so I thought that was kind of a

1147
00:55:25,660 --> 00:55:23,600
cool thing they they were in East

1148
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:25,670
Germany then and later on made their

1149
00:55:30,870 --> 00:55:28,610
escape to West Germany Algeria

1150
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:30,880
throughout the month of July had

1151
00:55:36,670 --> 00:55:33,890
multiple reports there was one in the

1152
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:36,680
Netherlands that involved a mother and

1153
00:55:44,770 --> 00:55:40,090
four adolescence and all this led up to

1154
00:55:50,710 --> 00:55:44,780
July 19 and 20 that night and then a

1155
00:55:52,810 --> 00:55:50,720
week later July 26 at Andrews Air Force

1156
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:52,820
Base which is where Air Force One has

1157
00:56:00,550 --> 00:55:56,650
parked in Maryland as well as Washington

1158
00:56:02,810 --> 00:56:00,560
National Airport the radars at both were

1159
00:56:04,310 --> 00:56:02,820
picking up unknowns that

1160
00:56:07,270 --> 00:56:04,320
shouldn't have been there and as

1161
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:07,280
airliners were coming in to land at

1162
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:10,770
national they're on board radars were

1163
00:56:16,790 --> 00:56:13,850
also picking up these unknowns

1164
00:56:21,140 --> 00:56:16,800
unfortunately they didn't have any way

1165
00:56:23,930 --> 00:56:21,150
to chase them down because what Andrews

1166
00:56:26,870 --> 00:56:23,940
was going through I'm sorry it was

1167
00:56:29,290 --> 00:56:26,880
another Air Base nearby that was going

1168
00:56:32,450 --> 00:56:29,300
through construction as all of his

1169
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:32,460
runways were being repaved and the

1170
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:35,610
squadron of fighter pilots and jets had

1171
00:56:40,820 --> 00:56:38,880
been sent to Delaware well as this kept

1172
00:56:45,260 --> 00:56:40,830
going for a while

1173
00:56:47,780 --> 00:56:45,270
Andrews and Washington made a call to to

1174
00:56:50,710 --> 00:56:47,790
the Delaware base and said get over here

1175
00:56:54,050 --> 00:56:50,720
find what's going on here

1176
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:54,060
then they really drop all the Jets don't

1177
00:56:59,710 --> 00:56:56,490
arrive until 3:00 in the morning

1178
00:57:03,470 --> 00:56:59,720
the the unknowns are still there

1179
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:03,480
meandering around in the sky but as the

1180
00:57:09,710 --> 00:57:06,090
Jets got within radar range of

1181
00:57:11,900 --> 00:57:09,720
Washington DC the unknowns boogied all

1182
00:57:14,810 --> 00:57:11,910
right in a way and gone right we're

1183
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:14,820
gonna have to pass yeah I'm sorry we're

1184
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:16,410
late for the breaks we have to we have

1185
00:57:20,510 --> 00:57:18,210
to take our break here and we'll jump

1186
00:57:23,420 --> 00:57:20,520
back we'll jump back on this top because

1187
00:57:26,300 --> 00:57:23,430
since we're back so so everyone just

1188
00:57:30,170 --> 00:57:26,310
hang in there over at YouTube we'll be

1189
00:57:31,820 --> 00:57:30,180
right back right after these home all

1190
00:57:34,370 --> 00:57:31,830
right everyone welcome back to the show

1191
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:34,380
my guest this evening is Dan right and

1192
00:57:41,570 --> 00:57:38,610
we're talking about his book the CIA UFO

1193
00:57:43,850 --> 00:57:41,580
papers and I had that wrong I think I

1194
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:43,860
had CIA's UFO papers or something like

1195
00:57:48,890 --> 00:57:46,890
that and the subtitle is 50 years of

1196
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:48,900
government secrets and cover-ups and

1197
00:57:53,900 --> 00:57:50,370
just before the break we were talking

1198
00:57:56,690 --> 00:57:53,910
about Andrews Air Force Base about 3:00

1199
00:57:59,300 --> 00:57:56,700
a.m. the Jets came in believe that's

1200
00:58:01,460 --> 00:57:59,310
kind of where you were at Dan if we want

1201
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:01,470
to continue on with what was going on

1202
00:58:09,910 --> 00:58:07,050
that that great encounter the pilots saw

1203
00:58:14,990 --> 00:58:09,920
nothing because the bogeys had boogied

1204
00:58:16,700 --> 00:58:15,000
they headed back to Delaware and as soon

1205
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:16,710
as they arrived a radar range

1206
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:19,290
back came the unknowns going up and down

1207
00:58:25,150 --> 00:58:22,650
and sideways all kinds of maneuvers that

1208
00:58:28,309 --> 00:58:25,160
aircraft just wouldn't be capable of and

1209
00:58:31,339 --> 00:58:28,319
so they they directed the pilots to come

1210
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:31,349
back and as they approached DC once

1211
00:58:40,370 --> 00:58:35,490
again the unknowns left and so it was a

1212
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:40,380
wash for the Air Force but 14 days after

1213
00:58:49,190 --> 00:58:46,410
the second of these it was July 26th I

1214
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:49,200
guess it was more than 14 but on August

1215
00:58:56,510 --> 00:58:52,770
14 the National Security Agency director

1216
00:58:59,359 --> 00:58:56,520
the NSA who is an Air Force general

1217
00:59:01,670 --> 00:58:59,369
named John Sanford he told the press

1218
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:01,680
that everything that had happened on DC

1219
00:59:08,059 --> 00:59:04,730
that night were temperature inversions

1220
00:59:13,040 --> 00:59:08,069
yeah and much of the public back then

1221
00:59:17,030 --> 00:59:13,050
was dumb enough to believe that so with

1222
00:59:21,650 --> 00:59:17,040
the Cold War under way and all attention

1223
00:59:25,069 --> 00:59:21,660
of course being given their OSI Offices

1224
00:59:28,970 --> 00:59:25,079
of scientific intelligence came to the

1225
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:28,980
conclusion that they were never going to

1226
00:59:34,819 --> 00:59:31,650
be able to quiet the public's outcry

1227
00:59:37,549 --> 00:59:34,829
about UFO ISM and these reports found

1228
00:59:40,940 --> 00:59:37,559
practically a daily basis unless they

1229
00:59:43,430 --> 00:59:40,950
brought in some hard science to bear and

1230
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:43,440
so they prevailed upon a fellow named

1231
00:59:50,569 --> 00:59:46,290
Robertson who was a physicist at Caltech

1232
00:59:52,670 --> 00:59:50,579
to put together a small group to look at

1233
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:52,680
the best evidence he found a radar

1234
00:59:57,530 --> 00:59:55,770
expert a couple of astronomers you might

1235
01:00:02,450 --> 00:59:57,540
have heard the name of one of them J

1236
01:00:05,359 --> 01:00:02,460
Allen Hynek and another physicist and

1237
01:00:08,270 --> 01:00:05,369
the missile expert they looked at what

1238
01:00:12,170 --> 01:00:08,280
they thought was the best evidence in a

1239
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:12,180
total of 12 hours over four days at the

1240
01:00:21,349 --> 01:00:17,970
CIA's OSI offices again the OSI wanted

1241
01:00:24,339 --> 01:00:21,359
to be completely anonymous in all of

1242
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:24,349
this but it was happening at their place

1243
01:00:35,030 --> 01:00:30,450
they came together in January of 53

1244
01:00:39,010 --> 01:00:35,040
and they looked at at Remington Utah

1245
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:39,020
film that was taken by a career Navy

1246
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:43,440
photographer on a best of equipment for

1247
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:49,290
its time movie camera as well as and

1248
01:00:57,290 --> 01:00:54,890
this guy the photographer said he had 12

1249
01:01:02,030 --> 01:00:57,300
polyethylene boot

1250
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:02,040
he had 12 saucers in his viewfinder but

1251
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:04,410
the group decided no it couldn't have

1252
01:01:10,510 --> 01:01:06,930
been that because it couldn't be UFOs

1253
01:01:13,069 --> 01:01:10,520
what was it they decided it was either

1254
01:01:16,370 --> 01:01:13,079
polyethylene balloons I don't know why

1255
01:01:19,970 --> 01:01:16,380
so many would be traveling in a group or

1256
01:01:21,490 --> 01:01:19,980
it was reflections off seagulls hmm I

1257
01:01:24,859 --> 01:01:21,500
remember that yeah

1258
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:24,869
there was a Great Falls Montana film

1259
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:28,290
taken by a minor league baseball manager

1260
01:01:33,079 --> 01:01:31,050
when he was tending his field a couple

1261
01:01:36,079 --> 01:01:33,089
of objects went overhead and he had a

1262
01:01:39,010 --> 01:01:36,089
movie camera handy and he took some

1263
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:39,020
footage of that he was naive enough to

1264
01:01:45,530 --> 01:01:42,690
lend it to the Air Force and months

1265
01:01:48,980 --> 01:01:45,540
later when he got back all the best

1266
01:01:53,599 --> 01:01:48,990
frames showing these objects very

1267
01:01:56,569 --> 01:01:53,609
clearly were missing and so what the

1268
01:01:59,030 --> 01:01:56,579
shortened version I guess the selected

1269
01:02:02,420 --> 01:01:59,040
short subject I used to call cartoons is

1270
01:02:05,089 --> 01:02:02,430
what the the Robertson panel looked at

1271
01:02:09,589 --> 01:02:05,099
and they decided that that was a couple

1272
01:02:14,780 --> 01:02:09,599
of f94 jets reflecting the Sun off their

1273
01:02:17,839 --> 01:02:14,790
fuselage geez they made the Robertson

1274
01:02:20,540 --> 01:02:17,849
panel had six overall conclusions and

1275
01:02:23,750 --> 01:02:20,550
this set the tone for the next few

1276
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:23,760
decades UFOs were no threat to national

1277
01:02:34,990 --> 01:02:30,410
security in a true crisis though mass

1278
01:02:38,690 --> 01:02:35,000
low-grade UFO reports could overload

1279
01:02:42,260 --> 01:02:38,700
communications and hide real hostile

1280
01:02:43,790 --> 01:02:42,270
acts by Russia or someone else and it

1281
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:43,800
would create maths

1282
01:02:49,670 --> 01:02:46,530
area their third conclusion was that

1283
01:02:51,590 --> 01:02:49,680
trying to solve most or all of the

1284
01:02:55,730 --> 01:02:51,600
incoming reports from the public would

1285
01:02:58,880 --> 01:02:55,740
be a huge waste of effort a fourth was

1286
01:03:01,880 --> 01:02:58,890
that they decided they needed to train

1287
01:03:06,620 --> 01:03:01,890
the public that they were looking at

1288
01:03:09,050 --> 01:03:06,630
IFOS not UFOs and any new substantial

1289
01:03:12,410 --> 01:03:09,060
report that came in the airforce

1290
01:03:14,510 --> 01:03:12,420
the CIA directed the Air Force to debunk

1291
01:03:20,690 --> 01:03:14,520
those and that gets him into trouble

1292
01:03:24,350 --> 01:03:20,700
later on a fifth conclusion was that the

1293
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:24,360
national security agencies should take

1294
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:28,050
immediate steps to strip the UFOs of the

1295
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:30,330
special status they have been given and

1296
01:03:36,410 --> 01:03:32,850
the aura of mystery they have

1297
01:03:39,530 --> 01:03:36,420
unfortunately acquired and also then a

1298
01:03:42,020 --> 01:03:39,540
sixth conclusion was that civilian

1299
01:03:44,750 --> 01:03:42,030
groups of UFO buffs

1300
01:03:46,790 --> 01:03:44,760
underway like a PR role the aerial

1301
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:46,800
phenomena research organization that was

1302
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:49,970
choral and Jim Lorenz ins group and

1303
01:03:55,370 --> 01:03:52,530
NICAP the National investigations

1304
01:04:00,340 --> 01:03:55,380
committee on aerial phenomena should be

1305
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:00,350
surveilled monitored yeah using spies

1306
01:04:06,950 --> 01:04:02,850
and that went over like a lead balloon

1307
01:04:09,020 --> 01:04:06,960
when it came became known so that was

1308
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:09,030
the Robertson report there was much

1309
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:12,810
ballyhooed it turned out to be a very

1310
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:16,650
scant effort reaching absurd conclusions

1311
01:04:23,300 --> 01:04:20,250
right right so that that was in 1953

1312
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:23,310
right then when that was 43 and then

1313
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:26,250
yeah but it was 1952 that Project Blue

1314
01:04:32,060 --> 01:04:28,050
Book started of course it was the third

1315
01:04:36,230 --> 01:04:32,070
you know of its type and so basically

1316
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:36,240
wasn't Project Blue Book used as part of

1317
01:04:43,730 --> 01:04:38,250
that tool of what you were talking about

1318
01:04:46,010 --> 01:04:43,740
identifying objects yeah it was a UFO

1319
01:04:48,500 --> 01:04:46,020
debunking effort from the very beginning

1320
01:04:50,900 --> 01:04:48,510
but what a lot of listeners don't know

1321
01:04:53,780 --> 01:04:50,910
and I didn't know this for years Blue

1322
01:04:57,560 --> 01:04:53,790
Book was minuscule you know you think of

1323
01:05:00,800 --> 01:04:57,570
a a battalion or something of in this

1324
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:00,810
the Gators there was at best - and

1325
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:04,610
usually one low ranking officer a

1326
01:05:11,870 --> 01:05:08,970
lieutenant or captain plus a sergeant

1327
01:05:14,870 --> 01:05:11,880
and a secretary and they had a file

1328
01:05:18,710 --> 01:05:14,880
drawer that was Project Blue Book for

1329
01:05:21,470 --> 01:05:18,720
the 17 years of its existence it was no

1330
01:05:24,650 --> 01:05:21,480
more than that they were supposed to be

1331
01:05:28,550 --> 01:05:24,660
covering a hundred bases around the

1332
01:05:31,370 --> 01:05:28,560
country plus anything coming in from

1333
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:31,380
Washington and then reports by the

1334
01:05:36,890 --> 01:05:34,050
public they did none of that all they

1335
01:05:39,710 --> 01:05:36,900
did was put together statistics for an

1336
01:05:43,820 --> 01:05:39,720
annual report that made him look busy

1337
01:05:45,260 --> 01:05:43,830
Wow interesting with project yeah you

1338
01:05:48,290 --> 01:05:45,270
know while we're on this subject I just

1339
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:48,300
wanted to talk real real quickly because

1340
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:50,970
uh I hung out quite a bit with Paul

1341
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:55,290
Hynek J Allen Hynek son oh yeah yeah

1342
01:05:59,330 --> 01:05:57,210
he's a great guy he's actually got a

1343
01:06:00,020 --> 01:05:59,340
really good sense of humor - real funny

1344
01:06:02,540 --> 01:06:00,030
guy huh

1345
01:06:05,540 --> 01:06:02,550
so I was hanging out with him and I

1346
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:05,550
asked him about you know the next season

1347
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:08,610
of the TV series because he does some

1348
01:06:12,980 --> 01:06:11,490
consulting and he said for the first

1349
01:06:15,050 --> 01:06:12,990
time he had to put his foot down

1350
01:06:18,940 --> 01:06:15,060
completely on something that they were

1351
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:18,950
going to have and next season basically

1352
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:22,170
I hope it's okay that I share this but

1353
01:06:26,090 --> 01:06:24,450
he didn't say that I shouldn't or

1354
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:26,100
anything but he was saying that they

1355
01:06:30,860 --> 01:06:28,050
wanted to run something along the lines

1356
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:30,870
of his father J Allen Hynek in the

1357
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:34,050
series saying making a statement a

1358
01:06:39,110 --> 01:06:37,290
scientific statement and so Paul said

1359
01:06:41,150 --> 01:06:39,120
it's a it's a false statement and I'm

1360
01:06:43,310 --> 01:06:41,160
not going to allow that he's basically

1361
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:43,320
you know telling them he said you know

1362
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:45,930
you hit you can't do it and so they

1363
01:06:50,510 --> 01:06:48,090
rewrote the script and basically are

1364
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:50,520
doing it as he's suggesting a

1365
01:06:54,710 --> 01:06:52,770
possibility instead of a scientific

1366
01:06:56,510 --> 01:06:54,720
which I think that's good that you know

1367
01:07:00,680 --> 01:06:56,520
I know they go off the rails a bit in

1368
01:07:03,650 --> 01:07:00,690
that show and he knows it too and he's

1369
01:07:06,350 --> 01:07:03,660
basically okay with it as long as they

1370
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:06,360
don't you know portray his father you

1371
01:07:11,330 --> 01:07:08,730
know in a real false way like they were

1372
01:07:13,970 --> 01:07:11,340
almost dead in that particular scene

1373
01:07:15,950 --> 01:07:13,980
but have you watched any of that I've

1374
01:07:18,860 --> 01:07:15,960
seen a couple of those I may have seen

1375
01:07:22,330 --> 01:07:18,870
that episode where Hynek appears to be

1376
01:07:25,010 --> 01:07:22,340
pondering something seriously and I was

1377
01:07:27,410 --> 01:07:25,020
comparing that with what I knew from his

1378
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:27,420
real work in the early 50s he was a

1379
01:07:33,380 --> 01:07:30,090
total d bunker right and it was only

1380
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:33,390
because he kept getting one report after

1381
01:07:37,610 --> 01:07:34,890
another through the years

1382
01:07:39,860 --> 01:07:37,620
via blue book that he frankly couldn't

1383
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:39,870
it couldn't explain and when he had a

1384
01:07:46,340 --> 01:07:43,770
whole arm load of those his own thinking

1385
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:46,350
began to change to the point where by

1386
01:07:54,020 --> 01:07:50,730
about 67 he had made the break with the

1387
01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:54,030
air force and of course in 73 then he

1388
01:08:00,620 --> 01:07:56,850
founded his own agency or organization

1389
01:08:03,050 --> 01:08:00,630
the Center for UFO studies that right

1390
01:08:05,210 --> 01:08:03,060
now carries his name he was a good man I

1391
01:08:09,650 --> 01:08:05,220
had the great pleasure of spending an

1392
01:08:13,310 --> 01:08:09,660
entire evening with him and regaled him

1393
01:08:13,670 --> 01:08:13,320
with local investigation aha wow that's

1394
01:08:16,340 --> 01:08:13,680
great

1395
01:08:20,300 --> 01:08:16,350
yeah I was I was glad and he told us

1396
01:08:22,550 --> 01:08:20,310
another fellow and I when he first got

1397
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:22,560
out into the world after college as a

1398
01:08:28,150 --> 01:08:25,770
scientist like every other scientist he

1399
01:08:32,150 --> 01:08:28,160
knew they thought UFOs were just hogwash

1400
01:08:35,599 --> 01:08:32,160
and he gave them that attitude until all

1401
01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:35,609
of these the like drip drip drip all

1402
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:37,920
these reports coming in to the point

1403
01:08:42,260 --> 01:08:39,690
where he couldn't ignore them anymore

1404
01:08:45,620 --> 01:08:42,270
that's right and I think from what I

1405
01:08:47,300 --> 01:08:45,630
understand I can't remember if Paul

1406
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:47,310
actually agreed with this or not but I

1407
01:08:53,180 --> 01:08:49,890
think he did was that Socorro was like

1408
01:08:55,490 --> 01:08:53,190
one of the turning points that that

1409
01:08:57,380 --> 01:08:55,500
incident in particular was like a

1410
01:09:00,920 --> 01:08:57,390
turning point and there was a few others

1411
01:09:03,650 --> 01:09:00,930
that kind of you know made him really

1412
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:03,660
start paying attention and really

1413
01:09:07,670 --> 01:09:05,130
realizing that there's something to it

1414
01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:07,680
but he found Lonnie Zamora so credible

1415
01:09:12,950 --> 01:09:11,250
in that in the succour ins yep that he

1416
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:12,960
really thought there was really might be

1417
01:09:18,050 --> 01:09:16,290
something to it but anyway it's really

1418
01:09:20,840 --> 01:09:18,060
great we know how to first start looking

1419
01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:20,850
into this topic I was totally confused

1420
01:09:25,579 --> 01:09:23,370
at who J Allen Hynek was because I

1421
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:25,589
watched these videos of him

1422
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:27,810
you know talking about swamp gas and you

1423
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:29,489
know everything else and then you know

1424
01:09:34,010 --> 01:09:31,770
then I found you know later that he he

1425
01:09:37,070 --> 01:09:34,020
actually as they say went to the other

1426
01:09:39,019 --> 01:09:37,080
side yes yes is he

1427
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:39,029
I'm sure the Air Force didn't appreciate

1428
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:42,770
him appreciate his turning cold on them

1429
01:09:48,829 --> 01:09:46,290
those the swamp gas business happened in

1430
01:09:51,979 --> 01:09:48,839
Michigan where I was raised and spent my

1431
01:09:56,050 --> 01:09:51,989
adult life until moving down to Georgia

1432
01:09:59,750 --> 01:09:56,060
after retirement and the second of those

1433
01:10:03,939 --> 01:09:59,760
just a couple of nights apart happened

1434
01:10:07,939 --> 01:10:03,949
at Hillsdale College for a dorm full of

1435
01:10:10,550 --> 01:10:07,949
coeds 87 of them in total plus a couple

1436
01:10:13,850 --> 01:10:10,560
of administrators from the college saw

1437
01:10:17,330 --> 01:10:13,860
this long event that happened over a

1438
01:10:20,810 --> 01:10:17,340
couple of hours and for Hynek then he

1439
01:10:23,060 --> 01:10:20,820
said when he was dispatched there to

1440
01:10:25,939 --> 01:10:23,070
come up with an answer and the answer

1441
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:25,949
better not be UFOs he said it was a

1442
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:29,610
chaotic couple of days and as soon as he

1443
01:10:34,189 --> 01:10:31,650
uttered the phrase swamp gas he

1444
01:10:36,770 --> 01:10:34,199
regretted it but he was stuck with it

1445
01:10:39,290 --> 01:10:36,780
and he became a laughingstock just like

1446
01:10:41,540 --> 01:10:39,300
the rest of Project Blue Book but that

1447
01:10:44,300 --> 01:10:41,550
was a real turning point in his thinking

1448
01:10:48,979 --> 01:10:44,310
and I've got to take this seriously

1449
01:10:53,540 --> 01:10:48,989
right now when you were looking into

1450
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:53,550
this topic of the CIA was there ever any

1451
01:11:03,290 --> 01:10:56,610
cooperation between the agency and

1452
01:11:11,899 --> 01:11:03,300
civilian UFO groups like MUFON yes in 65

1453
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:11,909
I believe the CIA director called in the

1454
01:11:18,410 --> 01:11:15,570
within the agency the OSI director to

1455
01:11:21,080 --> 01:11:18,420
say are you staying on top of of this

1456
01:11:24,050 --> 01:11:21,090
material because 65 after all another

1457
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:24,060
long law was starting to pick up with

1458
01:11:32,050 --> 01:11:26,880
UFO reports and then all hell broke

1459
01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:32,060
loose in 66 and 67 was a continuation of

1460
01:11:39,410 --> 01:11:34,800
nightly reports and making the major

1461
01:11:41,540 --> 01:11:39,420
media and stuff and so the CIA

1462
01:11:44,570 --> 01:11:41,550
dressed the OSI director you're staying

1463
01:11:46,850 --> 01:11:44,580
on top of this right well actually he

1464
01:11:50,030 --> 01:11:46,860
had not been and his people had not been

1465
01:11:53,540 --> 01:11:50,040
in quite a few years so they approached

1466
01:11:56,990 --> 01:11:53,550
the national in investigations committee

1467
01:12:01,100 --> 01:11:57,000
on aerial phenomena the private NICAP

1468
01:12:03,500 --> 01:12:01,110
group and borrowed over 100 of their

1469
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:03,510
investigative reports to kind of get up

1470
01:12:10,100 --> 01:12:07,410
to speed so yes was there cooperation at

1471
01:12:13,100 --> 01:12:10,110
one time there was out of necessity on

1472
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:13,110
the CIA's part wow that's really

1473
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:15,210
interesting I saw in your notes

1474
01:12:22,430 --> 01:12:17,850
something about the word ham sandwich

1475
01:12:24,470 --> 01:12:22,440
what does that actually mean it was my

1476
01:12:29,810 --> 01:12:24,480
cute way of conveying that there were a

1477
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:29,820
couple of of thorns in the CIA's

1478
01:12:37,100 --> 01:12:34,050
backside one of them was guy named Leon

1479
01:12:40,580 --> 01:12:37,110
Davidson he was just a nondescript

1480
01:12:43,250 --> 01:12:40,590
chemist but at a famous laboratory Los

1481
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:43,260
Alamos that was handling very sensitive

1482
01:12:51,290 --> 01:12:47,610
stuff and he got wind in his private

1483
01:12:55,510 --> 01:12:51,300
hours of something that had occurred in

1484
01:12:59,450 --> 01:12:55,520
the Chicago area that involved a code

1485
01:13:03,439 --> 01:12:59,460
over ham radio band and he decided this

1486
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:03,449
had to be space aliens communicating

1487
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:06,090
with earthlings and he approached the

1488
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:10,410
CIA over and over with letters and phone

1489
01:13:20,090 --> 01:13:13,410
calls and personal visits over five

1490
01:13:23,900 --> 01:13:20,100
years he followed this ham radio problem

1491
01:13:26,570 --> 01:13:23,910
until the point where officers within

1492
01:13:28,729 --> 01:13:26,580
the CIA would were on record as saying

1493
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:28,739
get rid of this guy please don't send

1494
01:13:33,260 --> 01:13:30,810
him back to us we can't stand this

1495
01:13:36,650 --> 01:13:33,270
anymore he wasted hundreds if not

1496
01:13:39,380 --> 01:13:36,660
thousands of hours of CIA staff time oh

1497
01:13:46,130 --> 01:13:39,390
so he was one half of the sandwich and

1498
01:13:51,260 --> 01:13:46,140
the other was was down Donald keyhole

1499
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:51,270
who in 56 took over nycap as its

1500
01:13:57,470 --> 01:13:53,250
executive director

1501
01:14:00,980 --> 01:13:57,480
he was a retired marine major so he had

1502
01:14:03,830 --> 01:14:00,990
some creds that way and from the second

1503
01:14:07,550 --> 01:14:03,840
he became the NICAP director he began

1504
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:07,560
shouting cover up to the media the press

1505
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:11,370
wherever he could find a voice over and

1506
01:14:18,710 --> 01:14:15,330
overand and the CIA came to really find

1507
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:18,720
discussed at the mention of his name in

1508
01:14:27,020 --> 01:14:22,290
the end after that had all quieted down

1509
01:14:30,140 --> 01:14:27,030
after some years the CIA in retrospect

1510
01:14:33,110 --> 01:14:30,150
regarded Leon Davidson as just a kook

1511
01:14:36,380 --> 01:14:33,120
you know thinking that Morse code I was

1512
01:14:39,290 --> 01:14:36,390
a kid at that time and I remember ham

1513
01:14:42,860 --> 01:14:39,300
radio bands having Morse code on them it

1514
01:14:44,900 --> 01:14:42,870
was commonplace but he certainly thought

1515
01:14:47,660 --> 01:14:44,910
it was Oh in the middle of this he

1516
01:14:51,110 --> 01:14:47,670
decided no this wasn't space aliens

1517
01:14:56,180 --> 01:14:51,120
after all but it was our own military

1518
01:15:01,040 --> 01:14:56,190
intelligence conveying secret stuff

1519
01:15:05,660 --> 01:15:01,050
about our secret you to kind of spy

1520
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:05,670
planes and he demanded more material on

1521
01:15:13,550 --> 01:15:08,610
that basis they regarded him as simply a

1522
01:15:17,510 --> 01:15:13,560
kook but keyhole he was a menace and

1523
01:15:20,860 --> 01:15:17,520
they not only distrusted him but feared

1524
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:20,870
him I really liked anytime I've ever

1525
01:15:26,660 --> 01:15:24,930
watched interviews with Kehoe actually

1526
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:26,670
there's one with I'm trying to remember

1527
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:29,010
not Mike Wallace but I'm trying to

1528
01:15:34,130 --> 01:15:31,130
remember who it was an old interview

1529
01:15:36,350 --> 01:15:34,140
really he was really good I mean he he

1530
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:36,360
really believed that there was something

1531
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:38,970
going on and and he stood his ground

1532
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:44,130
so yeah yeah now keyhole recruited a

1533
01:15:50,750 --> 01:15:47,730
very important individual to NICAP his

1534
01:15:54,260 --> 01:15:50,760
name was Roscoe Hill encoder he was a

1535
01:15:57,590 --> 01:15:54,270
retired Navy admiral and more important

1536
01:16:00,020 --> 01:15:57,600
than that in the years just after World

1537
01:16:04,550 --> 01:16:00,030
War two for a year or so

1538
01:16:07,100 --> 01:16:04,560
he was the CIA director well but he

1539
01:16:10,670 --> 01:16:07,110
joined nycap and was on its

1540
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:10,680
and he made a issued a statement to the

1541
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:13,170
press at one point saying behind the

1542
01:16:20,300 --> 01:16:16,290
scenes high-ranking Air Force officers

1543
01:16:22,880 --> 01:16:20,310
are soberly concerned about the UFOs but

1544
01:16:25,730 --> 01:16:22,890
through official secrecy and ridicule

1545
01:16:29,180 --> 01:16:25,740
many citizens are led to believe the

1546
01:16:31,190 --> 01:16:29,190
unknown flying objects are nonsense the

1547
01:16:33,710 --> 01:16:31,200
Air Force has assumed the right to

1548
01:16:37,820 --> 01:16:33,720
decide what the American people should

1549
01:16:40,700 --> 01:16:37,830
or should not know quite a statement Wow

1550
01:16:43,130 --> 01:16:40,710
I guess the phone lines are open if

1551
01:16:48,110 --> 01:16:43,140
anyone would like to call in that number

1552
01:16:51,800 --> 01:16:48,120
is 85kg are a live or that's eight five

1553
01:16:54,350 --> 01:16:51,810
five four seven two five four eight

1554
01:16:57,770 --> 01:16:54,360
three the phone lines are open if you'd

1555
01:17:03,050 --> 01:16:57,780
like to call in and ask our guest a

1556
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:03,060
question James McDonald were going back

1557
01:17:08,060 --> 01:17:04,890
I thought yeah he passed away

1558
01:17:10,700 --> 01:17:08,070
unfortunately yes in the 1970s or 80s

1559
01:17:14,150 --> 01:17:10,710
when did when did he pass well good

1560
01:17:20,420 --> 01:17:14,160
about just about 69 I believe Oh was it

1561
01:17:24,440 --> 01:17:20,430
that early yeah oh he was he was an

1562
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:24,450
atmospheric physicist at University of

1563
01:17:33,410 --> 01:17:29,370
Arizona and he became quite forceful

1564
01:17:35,690 --> 01:17:33,420
looking at the 53 Robertson panel report

1565
01:17:38,480 --> 01:17:35,700
he went to wright-patterson Air Force

1566
01:17:42,710 --> 01:17:38,490
Base where all of Project Blue Book's

1567
01:17:45,290 --> 01:17:42,720
vials were held and he was able at that

1568
01:17:47,890 --> 01:17:45,300
point they trusted him I guess to read

1569
01:17:53,300 --> 01:17:47,900
through a lot of the Robertson panel

1570
01:17:55,820 --> 01:17:53,310
pages and he noticed a memo attached to

1571
01:17:59,840 --> 01:17:55,830
this report the final Robertson panel

1572
01:18:03,770 --> 01:17:59,850
report a memo from the CIA directing the

1573
01:18:08,180 --> 01:18:03,780
Air Force to debunk future UFO sightings

1574
01:18:10,850 --> 01:18:08,190
and he started making huge noise about

1575
01:18:13,090 --> 01:18:10,860
that first to faculty and staff and

1576
01:18:16,420 --> 01:18:13,100
parents at at the University of Arizona

1577
01:18:20,480 --> 01:18:16,430
but then to a National Weather Service

1578
01:18:24,610 --> 01:18:20,490
conference and any public Stan

1579
01:18:28,570 --> 01:18:24,620
he could find saying that the CIA was

1580
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:28,580
responsible for covering up and and

1581
01:18:40,870 --> 01:18:31,650
orchestrating these debunking efforts by

1582
01:18:44,110 --> 01:18:40,880
the Air Force he after several months of

1583
01:18:47,540 --> 01:18:44,120
chiding the Air Force and the CIA

1584
01:18:51,830 --> 01:18:47,550
especially about an Air Force regulation

1585
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:51,840
that had come out in 62 commanding that

1586
01:18:59,690 --> 01:18:56,130
airbase commanders could no longer talk

1587
01:19:02,270 --> 01:18:59,700
to the public or the press about UFO

1588
01:19:05,090 --> 01:19:02,280
reports unless they were resolved if

1589
01:19:07,550 --> 01:19:05,100
they were IFOS the base commander could

1590
01:19:09,470 --> 01:19:07,560
talk about him otherwise all they would

1591
01:19:11,510 --> 01:19:09,480
be able to say was it's under

1592
01:19:13,550 --> 01:19:11,520
investigation we'll get back to you of

1593
01:19:19,370 --> 01:19:13,560
course they never do

1594
01:19:22,870 --> 01:19:19,380
so he kept raising this as see you can't

1595
01:19:26,150 --> 01:19:22,880
believe anything that the Air Force says

1596
01:19:29,750 --> 01:19:26,160
eventually dr. McDonald got in trouble

1597
01:19:33,290 --> 01:19:29,760
because of being so boisterous with his

1598
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:33,300
own university officials that created

1599
01:19:41,510 --> 01:19:35,730
tensions at home and his wife left him

1600
01:19:43,250 --> 01:19:41,520
and he was found himself just out in the

1601
01:19:46,190 --> 01:19:43,260
wilderness by himself

1602
01:19:48,980 --> 01:19:46,200
and he took his own life yeah so I ended

1603
01:19:51,740 --> 01:19:48,990
one of them that one chapter by saying

1604
01:19:57,140 --> 01:19:51,750
rest in peace dr. McDonald you did some

1605
01:20:01,490 --> 01:19:57,150
good yeah and unfortunately you know he

1606
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:01,500
was looked at oh yeah you know he he you

1607
01:20:06,500 --> 01:20:04,050
know because of that you know his UFO

1608
01:20:09,770 --> 01:20:06,510
work didn't mean anything but I will

1609
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:09,780
tell you the University there has has

1610
01:20:17,060 --> 01:20:14,010
really they saved his archives oh really

1611
01:20:19,790 --> 01:20:17,070
you know preserving his papers and you

1612
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:19,800
know taking that as a big deal so I

1613
01:20:26,870 --> 01:20:24,810
didn't yeah yeah yeah yeah it was the

1614
01:20:29,060 --> 01:20:26,880
work he did was really good we have a

1615
01:20:30,860 --> 01:20:29,070
caller I'm gonna wait here in just a

1616
01:20:34,010 --> 01:20:30,870
second before I ask you another question

1617
01:20:37,970 --> 01:20:34,020
and it's a it's not in the in

1618
01:20:42,430 --> 01:20:37,980
q ready yet but again if you'd like to

1619
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:42,440
call in that number is eight five five

1620
01:20:50,030 --> 01:20:47,330
four seven two five four eight three and

1621
01:20:52,390 --> 01:20:50,040
I'm just waiting for that call to be in

1622
01:20:56,450 --> 01:20:52,400
the slot and I'm going to pick it up and

1623
01:20:58,010 --> 01:20:56,460
we are going to I'm going to just bring

1624
01:21:02,870 --> 01:20:58,020
that call and unfortunately I don't have

1625
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:02,880
a name up there yet well I'm just gonna

1626
01:21:06,820 --> 01:21:04,410
bring the caller and it's been screened

1627
01:21:10,930 --> 01:21:06,830
oh here it is

1628
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:10,940
Steve from Las Vegas welcome to the show

1629
01:21:21,010 --> 01:21:18,570
hi hi Martin in done I read a lot about

1630
01:21:22,970 --> 01:21:21,020
the you know bullseye so many years now

1631
01:21:26,360 --> 01:21:22,980
but when I understand

1632
01:21:30,740 --> 01:21:26,370
two men signed the National Security Act

1633
01:21:33,410 --> 01:21:30,750
in 1947 right after Roswell with me

1634
01:21:35,570 --> 01:21:33,420
believe that maybe that that's the whole

1635
01:21:39,170 --> 01:21:35,580
purpose whether he established the CIA

1636
01:21:42,380 --> 01:21:39,180
was to cover up this Roswell incident in

1637
01:21:48,260 --> 01:21:42,390
the long term and through the history

1638
01:21:50,510 --> 01:21:48,270
the C San Fermin took I was at the CIA

1639
01:21:52,850 --> 01:21:50,520
nice to create the court kind of get

1640
01:21:57,590 --> 01:21:52,860
documents and he got some but they're

1641
01:22:00,650 --> 01:21:57,600
all blacked out but I've always found I

1642
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:00,660
stayed on the case for a number of years

1643
01:22:09,950 --> 01:22:07,530
the Roswell crash yes and so I've always

1644
01:22:16,070 --> 01:22:09,960
believed that CIA or the both front up

1645
01:22:18,350 --> 01:22:16,080
covering up this UFO cover-up and I was

1646
01:22:20,660 --> 01:22:18,360
wondering do you think how involved are

1647
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:20,670
they are now and covering up and are

1648
01:22:28,280 --> 01:22:24,690
they involved in these videos t SS a

1649
01:22:30,830 --> 01:22:28,290
releasing these videos you know how much

1650
01:22:33,140 --> 01:22:30,840
involved are they are now was in the

1651
01:22:36,950 --> 01:22:33,150
well I can tell you they haven't become

1652
01:22:40,040 --> 01:22:36,960
a whole lot more open and candid about

1653
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:40,050
the whole thing by announcing that they

1654
01:22:46,970 --> 01:22:42,810
were spilling their guts sending out of

1655
01:22:49,430 --> 01:22:46,980
a million pages of UFO documents to

1656
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:49,440
it's website well that was just a crock

1657
01:22:54,830 --> 01:22:52,890
of you-know-what no there they have no

1658
01:22:59,630 --> 01:22:54,840
better attitude now than they ever did

1659
01:23:02,030 --> 01:22:59,640
the CIA never wanted to step near the

1660
01:23:05,330 --> 01:23:02,040
UFO subject I knew it was a loser

1661
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:05,340
because most of them were cynical but

1662
01:23:09,979 --> 01:23:07,770
they knew that they could not prove a

1663
01:23:13,460 --> 01:23:09,989
negative they would have to say in every

1664
01:23:17,650 --> 01:23:13,470
case no this was a weather balloon this

1665
01:23:21,440 --> 01:23:17,660
was a conventional aircraft it was Venus

1666
01:23:24,050 --> 01:23:21,450
there that would get so old they knew

1667
01:23:27,410 --> 01:23:24,060
that couldn't it was just a losing

1668
01:23:29,570 --> 01:23:27,420
proposition and so they tried their very

1669
01:23:32,120 --> 01:23:29,580
best to get out of the business but they

1670
01:23:36,290 --> 01:23:32,130
kept being dragged back in by the air

1671
01:23:37,729 --> 01:23:36,300
force in a soil that's as close of an

1672
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:37,739
answer as I can get you I don't think

1673
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:40,850
your attitude has changed Oh whit today

1674
01:23:46,610 --> 01:23:44,850
well Steve thank you for the call thank

1675
01:23:49,670 --> 01:23:46,620
you very much all right have a good one

1676
01:23:52,100 --> 01:23:49,680
all right so the line is open again that

1677
01:23:54,890 --> 01:23:52,110
phone number is eight five five four

1678
01:23:57,140 --> 01:23:54,900
seven two five four eight three and bill

1679
01:24:01,850 --> 01:23:57,150
is screening the calls over there say hi

1680
01:24:03,860 --> 01:24:01,860
to Bill and so what well I couldn't

1681
01:24:06,229 --> 01:24:03,870
offer here something to fill with just a

1682
01:24:12,050 --> 01:24:06,239
minute or so uh sure yeah in the late

1683
01:24:14,690 --> 01:24:12,060
60s the CIA tried one more time to put

1684
01:24:18,020 --> 01:24:14,700
this whole thing to bed and they formed

1685
01:24:22,130 --> 01:24:18,030
a group under Edward u Condon who was a

1686
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:22,140
physicist University physicist deceit

1687
01:24:29,810 --> 01:24:24,810
they're the the air force was ready to

1688
01:24:31,940 --> 01:24:29,820
punt by late 66 and they had this Condon

1689
01:24:34,670 --> 01:24:31,950
put together a group of I believe five

1690
01:24:38,030 --> 01:24:34,680
physicists and three psychologists and

1691
01:24:40,400 --> 01:24:38,040
they were going to take 18 months and a

1692
01:24:43,490 --> 01:24:40,410
few hundred thousand dollar contract and

1693
01:24:44,979 --> 01:24:43,500
really do it right well it didn't turn

1694
01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:44,989
out quite like that

1695
01:24:50,960 --> 01:24:48,210
before they actually got underway the

1696
01:24:54,670 --> 01:24:50,970
another physicist who was their chief of

1697
01:24:57,290 --> 01:24:54,680
staff named Robert Lowe said to

1698
01:24:59,900 --> 01:24:57,300
university officials that University of

1699
01:25:00,890 --> 01:24:59,910
Colorado our study would be conducted

1700
01:25:04,610 --> 01:25:00,900
almost

1701
01:25:07,010 --> 01:25:04,620
lucify non-believers who would add an

1702
01:25:09,770 --> 01:25:07,020
impressive body of evidence that there

1703
01:25:14,510 --> 01:25:09,780
is no reality to the observations and

1704
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:14,520
then he used this 50 cent word the trick

1705
01:25:20,630 --> 01:25:18,330
would be I think to describe it so that

1706
01:25:23,479 --> 01:25:20,640
to the public it would appear a totally

1707
01:25:26,330 --> 01:25:23,489
objective study but to the scientific

1708
01:25:28,850 --> 01:25:26,340
community it would present the image of

1709
01:25:31,250 --> 01:25:28,860
a group of non-believers trying their

1710
01:25:34,130 --> 01:25:31,260
best to be objective but having an

1711
01:25:37,250 --> 01:25:34,140
almost zero expectation of finding a

1712
01:25:39,860 --> 01:25:37,260
saucer now a couple of months into this

1713
01:25:42,979 --> 01:25:39,870
18-month contract Condon himself

1714
01:25:45,830 --> 01:25:42,989
declared to the press I won't believe in

1715
01:25:48,530 --> 01:25:45,840
outer space saucers until I see one

1716
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:48,540
touch one haul it into a laboratory and

1717
01:25:51,919 --> 01:25:51,330
get some competent people to go over it

1718
01:25:55,189 --> 01:25:51,929
with me

1719
01:25:58,010 --> 01:25:55,199
he further told the press it is my

1720
01:26:00,200 --> 01:25:58,020
inclination right now to recommend that

1721
01:26:02,930 --> 01:26:00,210
the government get out of this business

1722
01:26:05,870 --> 01:26:02,940
my attitude right now is that there is

1723
01:26:09,439 --> 01:26:05,880
nothing to it but I'm not supposed to

1724
01:26:11,270 --> 01:26:09,449
reach a conclusion for another year so

1725
01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:11,280
that was the objectivity of the two

1726
01:26:16,580 --> 01:26:13,370
people running the Condon committee

1727
01:26:19,970 --> 01:26:16,590
didn't someone leave to like they they

1728
01:26:22,790 --> 01:26:19,980
were all right straighten up yeah yes

1729
01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:22,800
there was a near mutiny in February of

1730
01:26:29,740 --> 01:26:27,449
68 two people two of the scientists were

1731
01:26:34,189 --> 01:26:29,750
going to go to the press with this

1732
01:26:36,790 --> 01:26:34,199
comment by Robert Lowell about playing a

1733
01:26:39,620 --> 01:26:36,800
trick on the public they were fired

1734
01:26:42,530 --> 01:26:39,630
supposedly for being incompetent but

1735
01:26:49,370 --> 01:26:42,540
that caused almost the entire staff to

1736
01:26:52,100 --> 01:26:49,380
mutiny against them and oh let's see

1737
01:26:54,620 --> 01:26:52,110
we're on February 9 the Condon committee

1738
01:26:57,380 --> 01:26:54,630
experienced a near mutiny by several

1739
01:26:59,300 --> 01:26:57,390
staffers the dismissal of to the

1740
01:27:01,729 --> 01:26:59,310
resignation of the administrative

1741
01:27:04,100 --> 01:27:01,739
assistant the two who were fired

1742
01:27:06,950 --> 01:27:04,110
intended to make public Robert Louis

1743
01:27:09,620 --> 01:27:06,960
earlier comments they hung together

1744
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:09,630
loosely but you know the damage was done

1745
01:27:13,719 --> 01:27:12,449
and the Condon committee just kind of

1746
01:27:16,569 --> 01:27:13,729
faded from view

1747
01:27:20,489 --> 01:27:16,579
didn't didn't finish out its contract

1748
01:27:24,279 --> 01:27:20,499
that would just it was a total disaster

1749
01:27:27,759 --> 01:27:24,289
now so this is very similar in a way to

1750
01:27:30,699 --> 01:27:27,769
the Robertson panel wouldn't you get yes

1751
01:27:35,290 --> 01:27:30,709
yeah who major attempts to study the

1752
01:27:37,089 --> 01:27:35,300
subject to disastrous finishes purposely

1753
01:27:41,949 --> 01:27:37,099
no wonder you don't want to handle it

1754
01:27:44,379 --> 01:27:41,959
today so I know this is a going off

1755
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:44,389
topic of your book but what do you think

1756
01:27:49,839 --> 01:27:48,170
about you know I think during the during

1757
01:27:52,149 --> 01:27:49,849
the news segment we were talking about

1758
01:27:54,209 --> 01:27:52,159
you know the US Navy actually admitting

1759
01:27:57,279 --> 01:27:54,219
that what these videos are are

1760
01:28:00,759 --> 01:27:57,289
unidentified objects you know it's kind

1761
01:28:04,060 --> 01:28:00,769
of like the first really intriguing of

1762
01:28:07,299 --> 01:28:04,070
course these are to someone in the UFO

1763
01:28:09,609 --> 01:28:07,309
business these are strictly nocturnal

1764
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:09,619
lights you can't tell what the shape of

1765
01:28:14,319 --> 01:28:11,650
this is it's in the distance it's just

1766
01:28:17,580 --> 01:28:14,329
something glowing that ought not to be

1767
01:28:22,509 --> 01:28:17,590
there and is on the on the jet aircraft

1768
01:28:25,540 --> 01:28:22,519
radar and on their camera footage I for

1769
01:28:28,779 --> 01:28:25,550
now you know in MUFON would consider

1770
01:28:32,020 --> 01:28:28,789
this yeah cool subject I mean a cool

1771
01:28:34,390 --> 01:28:32,030
sighting but not really very helpful or

1772
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:34,400
relevant to answering what you have

1773
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:35,570
always are all about

1774
01:28:41,199 --> 01:28:38,690
they're just nocturnal lights I know you

1775
01:28:42,250 --> 01:28:41,209
might be confusing what I'm saying the

1776
01:28:47,410 --> 01:28:42,260
Navy

1777
01:28:49,449 --> 01:28:47,420
videos the three videos that were

1778
01:28:53,620 --> 01:28:49,459
released whether they had permission to

1779
01:28:57,699 --> 01:28:53,630
be released or not that were you know

1780
01:29:02,859 --> 01:28:57,709
Navy videos of UFOs one called the

1781
01:29:05,290 --> 01:29:02,869
gimbal one called fast Walker and the

1782
01:29:06,609 --> 01:29:05,300
third called tick-tock those three

1783
01:29:08,259 --> 01:29:06,619
videos that were released

1784
01:29:13,509 --> 01:29:08,269
you know the Navy was actually calling

1785
01:29:14,890 --> 01:29:13,519
them UFOs and I saw those words attached

1786
01:29:17,140 --> 01:29:14,900
to a two and they were more or less

1787
01:29:21,459 --> 01:29:17,150
saying they're credible but again it's

1788
01:29:23,529 --> 01:29:21,469
nothing close up this is all put camera

1789
01:29:25,810 --> 01:29:23,539
footage from on a jet that's why

1790
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:25,820
something maybe a couple of miles into

1791
01:29:29,890 --> 01:29:27,530
the distance

1792
01:29:31,870 --> 01:29:29,900
that's right I I still like there yeah

1793
01:29:34,720 --> 01:29:31,880
they're intriguing but they're not very

1794
01:29:37,570 --> 01:29:34,730
useful yeah well I don't know if there's

1795
01:29:39,400 --> 01:29:37,580
if there's do you think that Navy

1796
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:39,410
actually has better footage because I

1797
01:29:44,020 --> 01:29:42,170
know the Nimitz case by the way I do I

1798
01:29:46,210 --> 01:29:44,030
do have I will have someone back on

1799
01:29:47,620 --> 01:29:46,220
about the Nimitz case coming up maybe

1800
01:29:49,690 --> 01:29:47,630
and it would not at all

1801
01:29:51,940 --> 01:29:49,700
surprise me if they had something close

1802
01:29:53,710 --> 01:29:51,950
up but that's all they're releasing to

1803
01:29:56,320 --> 01:29:53,720
the public that's where I was surprised

1804
01:29:59,110 --> 01:29:56,330
at just that much that the Navy was

1805
01:30:01,540 --> 01:29:59,120
saying yeah we got a few things here

1806
01:30:03,670 --> 01:30:01,550
that could be credible that's the first

1807
01:30:06,430 --> 01:30:03,680
time anybody in the military or

1808
01:30:10,290 --> 01:30:06,440
intelligence establishment has owned up

1809
01:30:13,450 --> 01:30:10,300
to the reality of UFOs and decades

1810
01:30:16,870 --> 01:30:13,460
importantly that way yeah absolutely

1811
01:30:20,050 --> 01:30:16,880
and I know that people have seen some

1812
01:30:23,920 --> 01:30:20,060
witnesses have seen the footage of the

1813
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:23,930
tic-tock UFO off the Nimitz that was

1814
01:30:28,540 --> 01:30:26,210
actually in color and it wasn't radar or

1815
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:28,550
anything you know wasn't the infrared it

1816
01:30:32,860 --> 01:30:30,890
was actually a very very clear video

1817
01:30:36,670 --> 01:30:32,870
that has been seen but of course that

1818
01:30:40,570 --> 01:30:36,680
has that we won't see that film as far

1819
01:30:45,610 --> 01:30:40,580
as I know no oh and by tick-tack I

1820
01:30:48,390 --> 01:30:45,620
assume that like the candy of yes um but

1821
01:30:53,110 --> 01:30:48,400
from my youth really yes it's an

1822
01:30:56,770 --> 01:30:53,120
elongated oval yeah not quite a cylinder

1823
01:31:00,220 --> 01:30:56,780
but it's certainly not a saucer and it

1824
01:31:04,720 --> 01:31:00,230
may or may not at times be shrouded in a

1825
01:31:07,270 --> 01:31:04,730
you know kind of a fog whatever that's

1826
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:07,280
all about sometimes they are sometimes

1827
01:31:10,990 --> 01:31:08,090
they're not

1828
01:31:12,160 --> 01:31:11,000
but yeah the ticktick and it's of

1829
01:31:15,210 --> 01:31:12,170
substantial size

1830
01:31:18,550 --> 01:31:15,220
this is not something tiny it's not

1831
01:31:21,580 --> 01:31:18,560
right automobile-sized it would be much

1832
01:31:23,530 --> 01:31:21,590
larger yeah according to david flavor

1833
01:31:25,900 --> 01:31:23,540
the pilot that actually saw it

1834
01:31:29,010 --> 01:31:25,910
you know witnessed it he's saying that

1835
01:31:31,810 --> 01:31:29,020
he thought it was about 45 feet which is

1836
01:31:35,890 --> 01:31:31,820
substantial you're right yeah yeah yeah

1837
01:31:38,260 --> 01:31:35,900
yeah okay so let me just see if we have

1838
01:31:40,450 --> 01:31:38,270
any calls in there also I will try to

1839
01:31:41,379 --> 01:31:40,460
look for simple well we actually do we

1840
01:31:44,319 --> 01:31:41,389
have and

1841
01:31:44,949 --> 01:31:44,329
be calling from Connecticut Andy you're

1842
01:31:48,729 --> 01:31:44,959
on the air

1843
01:31:51,759 --> 01:31:48,739
welcome to the show hi guys

1844
01:31:55,919 --> 01:31:51,769
my question for Dan is what are his

1845
01:31:59,529 --> 01:31:55,929
thoughts on the idea that the CIA's

1846
01:32:01,000 --> 01:31:59,539
attempts to control the narrative we're

1847
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:01,010
doomed from the start

1848
01:32:08,229 --> 01:32:03,530
just based solely on the fact that it

1849
01:32:10,540 --> 01:32:08,239
seems as though that all the encounters

1850
01:32:13,870 --> 01:32:10,550
and sightings and things are far beyond

1851
01:32:15,969 --> 01:32:13,880
their control and I'll take your hanser

1852
01:32:16,989 --> 01:32:15,979
off the air and a good show is always

1853
01:32:23,979 --> 01:32:16,999
Martin thank you

1854
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:23,989
thanks Andy if if first you practice to

1855
01:32:30,100 --> 01:32:24,530
deceive

1856
01:32:32,439 --> 01:32:30,110
yeah yeah the CIA got in over its head

1857
01:32:34,120 --> 01:32:32,449
thinking they could control this and

1858
01:32:37,389 --> 01:32:34,130
when they couldn't they tried to get out

1859
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:37,399
but the because of thanks to the Air

1860
01:32:43,810 --> 01:32:40,610
Force the CIA kept being dragged back

1861
01:32:46,989 --> 01:32:43,820
into this to put out a fire or put out a

1862
01:32:50,379 --> 01:32:46,999
report to say again there's nothing to

1863
01:32:53,409 --> 01:32:50,389
this they did not know what to do about

1864
01:32:56,409 --> 01:32:53,419
UFOs and they ended up doing virtually

1865
01:32:59,159 --> 01:32:56,419
nothing but they they really gave

1866
01:33:02,139 --> 01:32:59,169
themselves a black eye in the process

1867
01:33:05,250 --> 01:33:02,149
didn't do them themselves any favors and

1868
01:33:08,979 --> 01:33:05,260
I won't be joining them any time soon

1869
01:33:11,500 --> 01:33:08,989
you know I think along those lines you

1870
01:33:14,620 --> 01:33:11,510
know I mean what I understand why the

1871
01:33:17,979 --> 01:33:14,630
Air Force wants to drag about anybody in

1872
01:33:21,399 --> 01:33:17,989
because when they don't have control of

1873
01:33:23,979 --> 01:33:21,409
their skies and they can't give answers

1874
01:33:26,919 --> 01:33:23,989
to what these things are you know yeah

1875
01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:26,929
that's the youth struck upon it the Air

1876
01:33:32,290 --> 01:33:30,050
Force and the CIA both believe that if

1877
01:33:35,379 --> 01:33:32,300
they offered to the public that there

1878
01:33:38,469 --> 01:33:35,389
was any credence to these reports well

1879
01:33:41,290 --> 01:33:38,479
what would that say about the u.s. it

1880
01:33:43,659 --> 01:33:41,300
would not be invincible anymore there's

1881
01:33:46,540 --> 01:33:43,669
something out there that that moves

1882
01:33:48,520 --> 01:33:46,550
around and does what it wants and we

1883
01:33:51,189 --> 01:33:48,530
can't do anything about it that doesn't

1884
01:33:53,409 --> 01:33:51,199
make us sound very powerful and if for

1885
01:33:55,629 --> 01:33:53,419
no other reason that was enough to keep

1886
01:33:59,530 --> 01:33:55,639
this all quiet

1887
01:34:02,830 --> 01:33:59,540
and debunked wow I can't believe where

1888
01:34:05,050 --> 01:34:02,840
our next guest is calling from okay I'm

1889
01:34:07,990 --> 01:34:05,060
gonna take our next phone guest that is

1890
01:34:11,399 --> 01:34:08,000
I'm going to take him Gil calling from

1891
01:34:14,490 --> 01:34:11,409
Roswell is it Roswell New Mexico or

1892
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:14,500
Roswell Georgia where you calling from

1893
01:34:22,030 --> 01:34:18,530
you got me makes you go yeah Wow you are

1894
01:34:29,200 --> 01:34:22,040
our first Roswell caller are you at the

1895
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:29,210
debris field Dexter a matter of fact out

1896
01:34:32,500 --> 01:34:30,650
on the ranch uh-huh

1897
01:34:35,979 --> 01:34:32,510
Wow thanks for the call you have a

1898
01:34:37,720 --> 01:34:35,989
question for our guest tonight yeah I

1899
01:34:39,550 --> 01:34:37,730
was wondering if he knows anything about

1900
01:34:41,700 --> 01:34:39,560
or remembers anything about this

1901
01:34:44,760 --> 01:34:41,710
Stephenville elides

1902
01:34:51,189 --> 01:34:44,770
no I'm sorry I'm not familiar with that

1903
01:34:55,930 --> 01:34:51,199
yeah I mean when was it suddenly when

1904
01:34:59,129 --> 01:34:55,940
was it you never 2007-2008 when they had

1905
01:35:03,010 --> 01:34:59,139
the big the big triangle over there

1906
01:35:05,410 --> 01:35:03,020
quite a few witnesses by the bush ranch

1907
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:05,420
frankly I was not with MUFON at that

1908
01:35:11,859 --> 01:35:09,650
time I kind of semi retired in 2003 and

1909
01:35:15,870 --> 01:35:11,869
didn't pick it up again until this

1910
01:35:20,649 --> 01:35:15,880
project in 2017 and I really didn't I

1911
01:35:24,430 --> 01:35:20,659
had reached a point after 35 years in

1912
01:35:27,970 --> 01:35:24,440
this business of or 25 I guess it was of

1913
01:35:31,959 --> 01:35:27,980
thinking you know I can go on till the

1914
01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:31,969
final hours of my life and really I

1915
01:35:37,750 --> 01:35:34,010
won't have accomplished this much

1916
01:35:41,669 --> 01:35:37,760
because we still haven't found out what

1917
01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:41,679
they are yeah where they're from and

1918
01:35:46,120 --> 01:35:44,210
anything that I've accomplished is

1919
01:35:49,180 --> 01:35:46,130
probably just a drop in the bucket

1920
01:35:52,689 --> 01:35:49,190
because this could be a thousand year or

1921
01:35:55,930 --> 01:35:52,699
a 10,000 year observation of the earth I

1922
01:35:58,240 --> 01:35:55,940
don't think to anything exciting you

1923
01:36:00,189 --> 01:35:58,250
know nothing's going to land on the

1924
01:36:03,490 --> 01:36:00,199
Pentagon lawn or anything within the

1925
01:36:07,030 --> 01:36:03,500
next couple of months and so I felt that

1926
01:36:09,460 --> 01:36:07,040
all the hours this had cost me a couple

1927
01:36:11,980 --> 01:36:09,470
of marriages frankly

1928
01:36:15,280 --> 01:36:11,990
and the thousands and thousands of hours

1929
01:36:16,930 --> 01:36:15,290
I put into it would really be just drop

1930
01:36:19,540 --> 01:36:16,940
in the bucket and that was discouraging

1931
01:36:25,360 --> 01:36:19,550
so I left the business and didn't come

1932
01:36:26,950 --> 01:36:25,370
back until this CIA file dump came known

1933
01:36:28,720 --> 01:36:26,960
and early 17

1934
01:36:31,300 --> 01:36:28,730
well you know if you didn't call Gil I

1935
01:36:33,370 --> 01:36:31,310
would never have all this information

1936
01:36:35,230 --> 01:36:33,380
and I will tell you that if you're

1937
01:36:38,050 --> 01:36:35,240
really interested in listening to a show

1938
01:36:39,820 --> 01:36:38,060
in that I did a show back you can find

1939
01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:39,830
it on YouTube I'm sure with Robert

1940
01:36:43,960 --> 01:36:40,570
Powell

1941
01:36:45,700 --> 01:36:43,970
about that Stephenville sighting that's

1942
01:36:50,560 --> 01:36:45,710
really interesting he really looked into

1943
01:36:53,050 --> 01:36:50,570
it but thank thank you for Lee call well

1944
01:36:55,210 --> 01:36:53,060
thank you I was will Martin the reason

1945
01:36:57,790 --> 01:36:55,220
why I was calling is because I say it

1946
01:37:01,030 --> 01:36:57,800
was a might have had a little bit of a

1947
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:01,040
would witness to a part of that that

1948
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:04,970
that main night the one that the pilot

1949
01:37:09,730 --> 01:37:07,970
actually seen the craft mm-hm

1950
01:37:12,490 --> 01:37:09,740
I was actually out here at the ranch

1951
01:37:16,530 --> 01:37:12,500
here east of Roswell out in the middle

1952
01:37:21,430 --> 01:37:16,540
of nowhere out by the cap rocks here and

1953
01:37:24,990 --> 01:37:21,440
two f-22s from Holloman come over the

1954
01:37:29,200 --> 01:37:25,000
ranch which is a very rare rarity they

1955
01:37:30,700 --> 01:37:29,210
there was a you know they had been over

1956
01:37:33,520 --> 01:37:30,710
there at the Holloman Air Force Base

1957
01:37:36,910 --> 01:37:33,530
just not they'd been stationed there not

1958
01:37:39,820 --> 01:37:36,920
too long before before that so that was

1959
01:37:44,830 --> 01:37:39,830
pretty pretty new over there right after

1960
01:37:47,260 --> 01:37:44,840
they F what that was an empty as a FAC

1961
01:37:48,910 --> 01:37:47,270
like they had over there yeah they're

1962
01:37:52,360 --> 01:37:48,920
not that stealth fighters they had a

1963
01:37:55,710 --> 01:37:52,370
mission but anyway they come over and

1964
01:38:00,040 --> 01:37:55,720
with their afterburners on at rear low

1965
01:38:03,580 --> 01:38:00,050
elevation altitude I should say headed

1966
01:38:05,470 --> 01:38:03,590
straight east toward Lubbock and it was

1967
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:05,480
the night to date because I was sitting

1968
01:38:10,420 --> 01:38:07,250
here doing some homework I was going to

1969
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:10,430
Eastern over here and I mean it little

1970
01:38:16,150 --> 01:38:12,650
rattler rattled the trailer that I was

1971
01:38:17,260 --> 01:38:16,160
in and it was headed toward there and

1972
01:38:18,790 --> 01:38:17,270
that was happened to be the night

1973
01:38:23,329 --> 01:38:18,800
because I was listening to coast to

1974
01:38:27,619 --> 01:38:23,339
coast and a night or two after that and

1975
01:38:30,199 --> 01:38:27,629
and Wow Jorge someone and was talking

1976
01:38:32,869 --> 01:38:30,209
about that so I don't know that would

1977
01:38:35,389 --> 01:38:32,879
had and was too poor but they never come

1978
01:38:37,159 --> 01:38:35,399
over on that down this flight line

1979
01:38:39,409 --> 01:38:37,169
through here

1980
01:38:42,619 --> 01:38:39,419
in born and raised out here you never

1981
01:38:46,899 --> 01:38:42,629
see them go in that that direction it's

1982
01:38:51,889 --> 01:38:46,909
usually to Clovis and then to Lubbock or

1983
01:38:53,959 --> 01:38:51,899
Amarillo that way toward those air bases

1984
01:38:56,209 --> 01:38:53,969
that they have one through two that way

1985
01:38:58,219 --> 01:38:56,219
but this this night they went straight

1986
01:39:02,809 --> 01:38:58,229
that way and they could've been over 400

1987
01:39:05,229 --> 01:39:02,819
feet Wow up that's actually I think you

1988
01:39:07,879 --> 01:39:05,239
have to be military to fly that low

1989
01:39:09,739 --> 01:39:07,889
commercial or private airline now

1990
01:39:13,129 --> 01:39:09,749
airplanes can't fly that low I believe

1991
01:39:14,689 --> 01:39:13,139
it has to be five above 500 feet but you

1992
01:39:16,399 --> 01:39:14,699
know you may want to contact Robert

1993
01:39:19,729 --> 01:39:16,409
Powell because I know he did a lot of

1994
01:39:23,389 --> 01:39:19,739
work on that case but I really

1995
01:39:24,739 --> 01:39:23,399
appreciate the call Gil oh you're

1996
01:39:26,409 --> 01:39:24,749
welcome Martin thank you and always a

1997
01:39:30,829 --> 01:39:26,419
great show that's what you always

1998
01:39:34,459 --> 01:39:30,839
excellent thanks a lot thank you okay so

1999
01:39:37,069 --> 01:39:34,469
incidentally this last Saturday for the

2000
01:39:39,829 --> 01:39:37,079
national anthem for the University of

2001
01:39:44,209 --> 01:39:39,839
Georgia a Notre Dame game here in Athens

2002
01:39:46,969 --> 01:39:44,219
of a formation of four f-18s went over

2003
01:39:49,790 --> 01:39:46,979
as they often do for big games but then

2004
01:39:52,609 --> 01:39:49,800
they went right over my neighborhood and

2005
01:39:55,909 --> 01:39:52,619
they couldn't have been even 400 feet up

2006
01:39:58,689 --> 01:39:55,919
it was more like 200 and just shook the

2007
01:40:00,290 --> 01:39:58,699
window oh yeah people went oh my god

2008
01:40:03,529 --> 01:40:00,300
what was that

2009
01:40:05,659 --> 01:40:03,539
yeah yeah hey I'd like to talk I'd like

2010
01:40:06,709 --> 01:40:05,669
to talk to you about what you just said

2011
01:40:08,599 --> 01:40:06,719
a few minutes ago

2012
01:40:10,399 --> 01:40:08,609
and the lines are still open if anyone

2013
01:40:13,040 --> 01:40:10,409
wants to call in again that number eight

2014
01:40:17,029 --> 01:40:13,050
five five four seven two five four eight

2015
01:40:19,520 --> 01:40:17,039
three I totally get what you said about

2016
01:40:22,059 --> 01:40:19,530
you know following away because I've

2017
01:40:24,500 --> 01:40:22,069
talked to a number of people who have

2018
01:40:26,299 --> 01:40:24,510
you know have gotten discouraged for

2019
01:40:29,059 --> 01:40:26,309
various reasons and you know had to take

2020
01:40:31,399 --> 01:40:29,069
a step back I get that and I also have

2021
01:40:33,500 --> 01:40:31,409
said on the show many times that you

2022
01:40:35,479 --> 01:40:33,510
know I've been doing this since coming

2023
01:40:36,830 --> 01:40:35,489
up on the eighth year anniversary here

2024
01:40:39,350 --> 01:40:36,840
and another

2025
01:40:41,600 --> 01:40:39,360
a couple months actually for you yeah

2026
01:40:43,459 --> 01:40:41,610
but I've said I said I think was just

2027
01:40:47,300 --> 01:40:43,469
the last show I said I think I know less

2028
01:40:52,520 --> 01:40:47,310
about UFOs now than when I started you

2029
01:40:54,709 --> 01:40:52,530
know and I'm not really sure if you know

2030
01:40:57,200 --> 01:40:54,719
if that's something that we're going to

2031
01:40:59,240 --> 01:40:57,210
see a change in or I don't expect it I

2032
01:41:02,030 --> 01:40:59,250
don't expect even though I feel as

2033
01:41:03,589 --> 01:41:02,040
though right now it feels like we're

2034
01:41:06,200 --> 01:41:03,599
really close to something I bet you had

2035
01:41:09,290 --> 01:41:06,210
that feeling in the past right sure

2036
01:41:12,109 --> 01:41:09,300
at any number of times in the past with

2037
01:41:14,149 --> 01:41:12,119
MUFON thinking there's there's going to

2038
01:41:18,080 --> 01:41:14,159
be we're going to turn a corner and the

2039
01:41:20,629 --> 01:41:18,090
the Air Force and and Washington are

2040
01:41:23,660 --> 01:41:20,639
going to come clean that they've been

2041
01:41:26,030 --> 01:41:23,670
baffled all these years well know here

2042
01:41:28,729 --> 01:41:26,040
we are you know 40 years after I got

2043
01:41:31,760 --> 01:41:28,739
into the business and we're no closer to

2044
01:41:34,430 --> 01:41:31,770
an admission then then we were uh huh

2045
01:41:36,410 --> 01:41:34,440
and you know I I also want to make a

2046
01:41:38,450 --> 01:41:36,420
comment too about you said all your

2047
01:41:41,959 --> 01:41:38,460
thousands of hours of work or drop in

2048
01:41:44,229 --> 01:41:41,969
the bucket you have to you have to take

2049
01:41:47,780 --> 01:41:44,239
a little bit of credit for that because

2050
01:41:49,040 --> 01:41:47,790
you know you have you know in your bio

2051
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:49,050
it says you know you wrote three

2052
01:41:54,830 --> 01:41:51,810
chapters to the MUFON you know you know

2053
01:41:57,620 --> 01:41:54,840
basically you have you have helped I bet

2054
01:42:00,379 --> 01:41:57,630
you've helped hundreds of people in one

2055
01:42:03,530 --> 01:42:00,389
way or another involved in UFO sightings

2056
01:42:05,660 --> 01:42:03,540
that just wanted someone to talk to I

2057
01:42:11,240 --> 01:42:05,670
bet you were helpful in that way that's

2058
01:42:13,209 --> 01:42:11,250
true son dad yeah but you know that and

2059
01:42:17,200 --> 01:42:13,219
two bucks will get me a cup of coffee

2060
01:42:18,979 --> 01:42:17,210
but but it's not always that it's also

2061
01:42:22,850 --> 01:42:18,989
you know I mean there was this a

2062
01:42:26,570 --> 01:42:22,860
situation here with I'm sure you heard

2063
01:42:30,080 --> 01:42:26,580
of the Pascagoula case oh yeah and

2064
01:42:34,959 --> 01:42:30,090
Calvin Parker you know I had a situation

2065
01:42:37,459 --> 01:42:34,969
were through him and and helping him a

2066
01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:37,469
family connection a lost family member

2067
01:42:42,740 --> 01:42:39,810
it's just one little thing that I did

2068
01:42:45,140 --> 01:42:42,750
here that made me feel really good it

2069
01:42:48,140 --> 01:42:45,150
has nothing to do with money has nothing

2070
01:42:49,910 --> 01:42:48,150
to do with UFOs but it has to do with

2071
01:42:50,780 --> 01:42:49,920
people and helping people and I think

2072
01:42:55,880 --> 01:42:50,790
that

2073
01:42:59,390 --> 01:42:55,890
have done a lot of I can tell okay I'll

2074
01:43:02,420 --> 01:42:59,400
take that one okay very good

2075
01:43:06,560 --> 01:43:02,430
our line still open we have about eight

2076
01:43:08,450 --> 01:43:06,570
or nine minutes left and was you you

2077
01:43:10,370 --> 01:43:08,460
mentioned there was a what was of the oh

2078
01:43:14,120 --> 01:43:10,380
I can't remember they have the four

2079
01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:14,130
initials the OSI or something what part

2080
01:43:23,630 --> 01:43:19,970
of the CIA actually they were it cease

2081
01:43:27,230 --> 01:43:23,640
don't think of just an office this was

2082
01:43:30,020 --> 01:43:27,240
like a couple of floors of the Pentagon

2083
01:43:33,500 --> 01:43:30,030
where oh s I was alas our Office of

2084
01:43:37,130 --> 01:43:33,510
Scientific intelligence yeah and it was

2085
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:37,140
a sprawling office quote-unquote with

2086
01:43:42,860 --> 01:43:39,930
multiple divisions within it and it's

2087
01:43:45,730 --> 01:43:42,870
curious and I'm reminded now that over

2088
01:43:48,920 --> 01:43:45,740
the years that the CIA was trying to

2089
01:43:53,450 --> 01:43:48,930
stay out but kept being pulled back into

2090
01:43:56,660 --> 01:43:53,460
this each time they were yanked back a

2091
01:43:59,840 --> 01:43:56,670
different division within OSI would be

2092
01:44:03,080 --> 01:43:59,850
charged with by the director of the

2093
01:44:06,530 --> 01:44:03,090
agency with responsibility for putting

2094
01:44:09,380 --> 01:44:06,540
the kibosh on all of these new incoming

2095
01:44:12,650 --> 01:44:09,390
reports and I'm sure it was an oh my god

2096
01:44:14,630 --> 01:44:12,660
moment for whoever got named but and

2097
01:44:17,090 --> 01:44:14,640
they got rid of the responsibility as

2098
01:44:19,820 --> 01:44:17,100
soon as they could when it came back yet

2099
01:44:25,480 --> 01:44:19,830
another division would be named so they

2100
01:44:34,610 --> 01:44:29,930
intelligence with as it were within OSI

2101
01:44:36,980 --> 01:44:34,620
they kept losing the experience that the

2102
01:44:39,230 --> 01:44:36,990
last division had and had accumulated

2103
01:44:42,050 --> 01:44:39,240
and so they were spinning their wheels

2104
01:44:45,560 --> 01:44:42,060
partly because of that no one wanted it

2105
01:44:50,110 --> 01:44:45,570
and no one wanted to work hard on it hmm

2106
01:44:51,710 --> 01:44:50,120
Wow now what about the Soviet during the

2107
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:51,720
Cold War

2108
01:44:58,180 --> 01:44:54,570
what type of I know that you know there

2109
01:45:00,800 --> 01:44:58,190
was so much the CIA was involved in were

2110
01:45:04,040 --> 01:45:00,810
there ever any moments that you're aware

2111
01:45:04,520 --> 01:45:04,050
of that the CIA was working on that

2112
01:45:05,750 --> 01:45:04,530
angle

2113
01:45:09,350 --> 01:45:05,760
that it might have something to do with

2114
01:45:14,419 --> 01:45:09,360
this with were asked that yeah they were

2115
01:45:17,089 --> 01:45:14,429
asked that and sometime in 52 when the

2116
01:45:18,560 --> 01:45:17,099
CIA director put the word out that he

2117
01:45:21,439 --> 01:45:18,570
wanted to know where the Russians

2118
01:45:24,500 --> 01:45:21,449
responsible for all of this or any of it

2119
01:45:25,189 --> 01:45:24,510
the answer came back no from what we've

2120
01:45:29,109 --> 01:45:25,199
learned

2121
01:45:32,060 --> 01:45:29,119
no foreign government can have such

2122
01:45:33,799 --> 01:45:32,070
advanced vehicles as as have been

2123
01:45:36,350 --> 01:45:33,809
reported the Russians are not

2124
01:45:40,010 --> 01:45:36,360
responsible but neither are the French

2125
01:45:42,700 --> 01:45:40,020
or the Chinese or anybody else they all

2126
01:45:46,069 --> 01:45:42,710
but said yeah it's got to be offworld

2127
01:45:49,370 --> 01:45:46,079
but they never would but they did say

2128
01:45:51,709 --> 01:45:49,380
matter-of-factly to the CIA director

2129
01:45:55,250 --> 01:45:51,719
no sorry wish we could pin this on the

2130
01:46:00,500 --> 01:45:55,260
Russians but we can't mm-hmm you were

2131
01:46:02,299 --> 01:46:00,510
talking earlier about the two panels

2132
01:46:05,120 --> 01:46:02,309
basically the Robertson panel in the

2133
01:46:09,410 --> 01:46:05,130
condom Committee on and in committee did

2134
01:46:11,750 --> 01:46:09,420
they was there like a certain amount of

2135
01:46:14,060 --> 01:46:11,760
UFO cases that they were told they had

2136
01:46:16,279 --> 01:46:14,070
to look into or did they have a did

2137
01:46:19,220 --> 01:46:16,289
panel have a broad scope of anything

2138
01:46:21,200 --> 01:46:19,230
they wanted yeah as far as I know they

2139
01:46:24,410 --> 01:46:21,210
picked out whatever they wanted no one

2140
01:46:26,720 --> 01:46:24,420
told them to look at anything the I

2141
01:46:32,839 --> 01:46:26,730
don't know how it is that they came that

2142
01:46:36,140 --> 01:46:32,849
the Robertson panel looked at the trem

2143
01:46:38,450 --> 01:46:36,150
inton Utah film taken by the Navy

2144
01:46:40,669 --> 01:46:38,460
photographer it was these things just

2145
01:46:44,299 --> 01:46:40,679
popped up you know to the reader you

2146
01:46:47,060 --> 01:46:44,309
have no idea how they came to acquire

2147
01:46:50,060 --> 01:46:47,070
this stuff or what led them to one case

2148
01:46:52,669 --> 01:46:50,070
or another but having gotten it didn't

2149
01:46:54,589 --> 01:46:52,679
matter how credible it was it was kind

2150
01:46:58,549 --> 01:46:54,599
of it was going to get the fickle finger

2151
01:47:01,359 --> 01:46:58,559
of fate from the CIA and how about the

2152
01:47:05,510 --> 01:47:01,369
national photographic interpretation

2153
01:47:07,549 --> 01:47:05,520
Center NPA I see what was there how did

2154
01:47:11,180 --> 01:47:07,559
they get involved in did they get

2155
01:47:15,049 --> 01:47:11,190
involved was yeah yeah yeah it was

2156
01:47:17,569 --> 01:47:15,059
always an arm of the CIA but it was only

2157
01:47:18,080 --> 01:47:17,579
really in like the 50s when cameras

2158
01:47:21,200 --> 01:47:18,090
started

2159
01:47:25,580 --> 01:47:21,210
to become sophisticated and and camera

2160
01:47:27,790 --> 01:47:25,590
film processing that did this n pick the

2161
01:47:31,730 --> 01:47:27,800
national photographic interpretation

2162
01:47:35,930 --> 01:47:31,740
Center became involved the Robertson

2163
01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:35,940
group went to visit a doctor Arthur lund

2164
01:47:43,910 --> 01:47:39,210
all who headed this end pic and he

2165
01:47:47,210 --> 01:47:43,920
showed them some new whiz-bang photo

2166
01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:47,220
analysis techniques that they had where

2167
01:47:51,890 --> 01:47:49,970
you could take a 2-dimensional image and

2168
01:47:54,710 --> 01:47:51,900
actually turn it into a

2169
01:47:58,460 --> 01:47:54,720
three-dimensional projection of angles

2170
01:48:02,630 --> 01:47:58,470
and what not photogrammetry that's

2171
01:48:04,250 --> 01:48:02,640
called and Robertson was hugely

2172
01:48:08,390 --> 01:48:04,260
impressed by that

2173
01:48:11,060 --> 01:48:08,400
and so they after a first visit to n

2174
01:48:14,270 --> 01:48:11,070
pick they came back and a couple of

2175
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:14,280
times with some material to have it

2176
01:48:21,710 --> 01:48:17,850
analyzed it never became the center of

2177
01:48:25,310 --> 01:48:21,720
any aspect of this but it really was

2178
01:48:28,420 --> 01:48:25,320
important to Robertson he thought for

2179
01:48:31,910 --> 01:48:28,430
the first time he had a technique to

2180
01:48:33,500 --> 01:48:31,920
absolutely put the kibosh on somebody's

2181
01:48:38,750 --> 01:48:33,510
claim of a UFO

2182
01:48:40,640 --> 01:48:38,760
or you know conversely he could find out

2183
01:48:44,360 --> 01:48:40,650
very easily that it was totally

2184
01:48:45,890 --> 01:48:44,370
unexplainable right you know maybe they

2185
01:48:47,480 --> 01:48:45,900
weren't going there yeah they weren't

2186
01:48:49,640 --> 01:48:47,490
showing that they weren't perfect we're

2187
01:48:52,550 --> 01:48:49,650
not going to go there no yeah it's just

2188
01:48:56,440 --> 01:48:52,560
like I've accused the Air Force of for

2189
01:49:00,710 --> 01:48:56,450
decades their attitude was it cannot be

2190
01:49:02,900 --> 01:49:00,720
therefore it isn't yeah do you think you

2191
01:49:05,390 --> 01:49:02,910
know with today's technology that

2192
01:49:07,250 --> 01:49:05,400
they're really looking at things closely

2193
01:49:09,590 --> 01:49:07,260
I mean I've one of the we only have a

2194
01:49:12,380 --> 01:49:09,600
couple minutes left here but I've said

2195
01:49:13,910 --> 01:49:12,390
on the show probably too many times that

2196
01:49:16,130 --> 01:49:13,920
I don't think that the government really

2197
01:49:18,830 --> 01:49:16,140
knows much more if anything more than we

2198
01:49:22,040 --> 01:49:18,840
actually do correct

2199
01:49:24,320 --> 01:49:22,050
I'm I'm convinced partly because they

2200
01:49:27,260 --> 01:49:24,330
have not put the proper resources into

2201
01:49:31,300 --> 01:49:27,270
finding the information they don't have

2202
01:49:33,040 --> 01:49:31,310
it and so it's it's like

2203
01:49:36,310 --> 01:49:33,050
you know we're barking up the wrong tree

2204
01:49:37,810 --> 01:49:36,320
to expect our government to resolve the

2205
01:49:40,350 --> 01:49:37,820
UFO matter for us

2206
01:49:43,840 --> 01:49:40,360
they haven't been trying MUFON has done

2207
01:49:47,140 --> 01:49:43,850
10,000 times as much effort as the CIA

2208
01:49:49,690 --> 01:49:47,150
or the Air Force ever did yeah and do

2209
01:49:53,680 --> 01:49:49,700
you think that some people claim that

2210
01:49:55,060 --> 01:49:53,690
they think that MUFON was infiltrated by

2211
01:49:56,860 --> 01:49:55,070
the government what's your thoughts on

2212
01:49:57,310 --> 01:49:56,870
that do you think that's just conspiracy

2213
01:50:00,610 --> 01:49:57,320
theory

2214
01:50:02,740 --> 01:50:00,620
I never yeah I never had any any notion

2215
01:50:05,880 --> 01:50:02,750
of that now these were straight-up guys

2216
01:50:08,380 --> 01:50:05,890
uh-huh you know that I I said in

2217
01:50:10,270 --> 01:50:08,390
administrative meetings with that I had

2218
01:50:14,700 --> 01:50:10,280
a couple of beers with no they were

2219
01:50:18,480 --> 01:50:14,710
straight-up and and didn't have any

2220
01:50:22,240 --> 01:50:18,490
devices on on or about their bodies to

2221
01:50:25,530 --> 01:50:22,250
secret away information know that MUFON

2222
01:50:28,900 --> 01:50:25,540
has always been just a bunch of seekers

2223
01:50:32,040 --> 01:50:28,910
just seeking the truth wherever it led

2224
01:50:37,420 --> 01:50:32,050
yeah okay well your book is on Amazon

2225
01:50:39,460 --> 01:50:37,430
and would you want to give out a way for

2226
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:39,470
people to contact you that's up to you

2227
01:50:46,570 --> 01:50:43,610
one way or the other um yeah you can

2228
01:50:48,940 --> 01:50:46,580
email me for sure and it's pretty easy

2229
01:50:55,780 --> 01:50:48,950
it's my name with a little bit extra

2230
01:50:59,500 --> 01:50:55,790
all one word dan right 1947 that's my

2231
01:51:01,390 --> 01:50:59,510
birth year at gmail.com that's easy

2232
01:51:05,320 --> 01:51:01,400
enough well hopefully you don't get in

2233
01:51:08,920 --> 01:51:05,330
right 1947 at gmail I hope you don't get

2234
01:51:11,830 --> 01:51:08,930
as much spam as I do but thank you it's

2235
01:51:13,600 --> 01:51:11,840
been pleasurable thank you so much you

2236
01:51:14,940 --> 01:51:13,610
bet have a good night all right you have

2237
01:51:18,430 --> 01:51:14,950
a good night as well

2238
01:51:20,620 --> 01:51:18,440
all right everyone that's it for the

2239
01:51:23,710 --> 01:51:20,630
show tonight thank you so much for

2240
01:51:26,290 --> 01:51:23,720
listening we will be back next week with

2241
01:51:29,350 --> 01:51:26,300
I'm pretty happy about this we have

2242
01:51:33,430 --> 01:51:29,360
Williams Center on next week from North

2243
01:51:36,340 --> 01:51:33,440
Carolina and he as he's a longtime and

2244
01:51:38,500 --> 01:51:36,350
well-respected researcher really glad to

2245
01:51:40,450 --> 01:51:38,510
have him on the show coming up we have a

2246
01:51:41,800 --> 01:51:40,460
lot of great shows coming up but I want

2247
01:51:44,709 --> 01:51:41,810
to thank everyone that helps out with

2248
01:51:47,469 --> 01:51:44,719
the show and we are out of